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View Full Version : Re: Why We Need National Health Insurance


Albert Wagner
June 30th 03, 04:57 PM
On 30 Jun 2003 12:18:05 -0700
(Tom Welch) wrote:

> My $0.02:
>
> National health insurance is just
> around the corner. What's stressing
> the health care system?
>
> The sheer volume of baby boomers using
> the system so that costs are escalating
> out of control to the point that even
> large corporations are feeling the
> pain.
>
> Every day in America, 10,000 people turn
> 50 years of age. So, even from the
> health insurance company's point of view,
> it is now a unprofitable business to be in,
> which is why some have already left the
> business.
>
> Demographics drives this issue.
>
> Tom Welch

Sounds like the health insurance companies had idiots for actuaries.

Albert Wagner
June 30th 03, 04:57 PM
On 30 Jun 2003 12:18:05 -0700
(Tom Welch) wrote:

> My $0.02:
>
> National health insurance is just
> around the corner. What's stressing
> the health care system?
>
> The sheer volume of baby boomers using
> the system so that costs are escalating
> out of control to the point that even
> large corporations are feeling the
> pain.
>
> Every day in America, 10,000 people turn
> 50 years of age. So, even from the
> health insurance company's point of view,
> it is now a unprofitable business to be in,
> which is why some have already left the
> business.
>
> Demographics drives this issue.
>
> Tom Welch

Sounds like the health insurance companies had idiots for actuaries.

Albert Wagner
June 30th 03, 07:24 PM
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:00:34 -0400
"linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:

> "Albert Wagner" > wrote in message
>
> > The cost of health care IS a valid topic. We are consumers of
> > health care. We are attempting to live frugally. This is
> > consumers.frugal-living.
>
> In the multitude of flamewars which have burned in m.c.f-l regarding
> this topic, has anyone ever been so overwhelmed by the merits of the
> argument that their opinion actually shifted from one side to the
> other?
>
> I thought not.

Wait! You didn't give anyone time to answer.

Albert Wagner
June 30th 03, 07:24 PM
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:00:34 -0400
"linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:

> "Albert Wagner" > wrote in message
>
> > The cost of health care IS a valid topic. We are consumers of
> > health care. We are attempting to live frugally. This is
> > consumers.frugal-living.
>
> In the multitude of flamewars which have burned in m.c.f-l regarding
> this topic, has anyone ever been so overwhelmed by the merits of the
> argument that their opinion actually shifted from one side to the
> other?
>
> I thought not.

Wait! You didn't give anyone time to answer.

Tom Welch
June 30th 03, 09:18 PM
My $0.02:

National health insurance is just
around the corner. What's stressing
the health care system?

The sheer volume of baby boomers using
the system so that costs are escalating
out of control to the point that even
large corporations are feeling the
pain.

Every day in America, 10,000 people turn
50 years of age. So, even from the
health insurance company's point of view,
it is now a unprofitable business to be in,
which is why some have already left the
business.

Demographics drives this issue.

Tom Welch

Rick
July 1st 03, 07:39 AM
Albert Wagner wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 03:52:23 -0000
> (Gary Heston) wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>The only reason it "pretty well sums it up" is because it agrees with
>>your viewpoint; it's hardly a balanced review.
>
>
> So quit whining and offer the view from your side.

funny, this is coming from someone who whines here all the time..

//rick

Rick
July 1st 03, 07:39 AM
Albert Wagner wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 03:52:23 -0000
> (Gary Heston) wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>The only reason it "pretty well sums it up" is because it agrees with
>>your viewpoint; it's hardly a balanced review.
>
>
> So quit whining and offer the view from your side.

funny, this is coming from someone who whines here all the time..

//rick

Tsu Dho Poster
July 1st 03, 03:30 PM
> National health insurance is the obvious prescription
>
> By Quentin Young. Quentin Young is a Chicago physician and coordinator of
> Physicians for a National Health Program
> June 29, 2003
>
> I have practiced medicine in Chicago for more than 50 years, but these
days,
> I spend much of my time advocating for health-care reform.

Oh, I get it.....a half-century of milking the system (I gots mine) now you
advocate reform.
Ok, Dr. Theresa.

>>Like Presidents Harry Truman and John Kennedy,

Puh-leeze....I've read a lot about Kennedy........you, sir, are No John
Kennedy!

>>I propose that we adopt national health insurance, administered via the
government, as with Medicare and Social
>>Security.

Whether medicare/medicaide, or even education, whenever the government funds
programs the costs usually escalate.....thru the roof!
I have no faith in gubmint controlling costs. They'd probably opt for
rationing of services.

> The problems in our health system arise from a national penchant to treat
> health care as a commodity and to blindly pursue a free-market strategy
> despite the obvious differences between, say, health care and DVD players.

Right. "Health care" ( really _disease care) is a profit-motivated industry,
not unlike auto repair. Part of the problem is, doctors are trained
to use the most profitable treatment modalities, not necessarily the most
effective.

>>In practice, more than 18,000 people die every year for lack of coverage

In reality, if those 42 million had full access to $modern medicine$, about
33, 000 would die from various medical treatments.
(see JAMA article: Vol. 284. No. 4 - July 28, 2000 )

> Other nations' success
> Because national health insurance works well for the 20-odd wealthy,
> industrialized nations of the world--Taiwan's program adopted in the
> mid-1990s is the most recent success--

Other nations' Lack of success:
Don't know about Taiwan , (enjoyed Kaohsiung)
but here's a sample of newspaper headlines from the UK:
Most pertain to cancer treatment via their NHS (national health service)

enjoy.
------------------------------------------------
NHS cases pay for quick ops in South Africa:
South Africa is now becoming a favourite destination for British cancer
patients fleeing the NHS in a desperate search for life-saving treatment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Cash-strapped NHS hospitals chase private patient 'bonanza'

Patients are paying record amounts out of their own pockets to buy private
treatment from the National Health Service, which was set up to offer
services for free writes Anthony Browne. NHS audit
------------------------------------------------------------------
Deadly rise in wait for cancer care

More hospitals failing treatment targets. Doctors urge change as delays cost
lives

Britain's cancer scandal:
How thousands of cancer patients and doctors have been betrayed

25,000 deaths a year could be prevented if we matched Europe's best hospital
treatment,
reports health editor Anthony Browne

Waiting lists continue to rise

60 hospitals face axe in NHS reform

Revealed: one in four health employees is now a bureaucrat

Top cancer centre 'little more than slum'

Four senior doctors leave unit afflicted by lack of resources and years of
underspending

National review damns hospital cancer care

Experts warn funding and research has become dangerously 'skewed' in a way
which may be costing lives

-----------------------------------------------------------
Cancer: NHS 'failing breast cancer victims in north'
Sarah Boseley, health editor


Cancer test errors shock:
Audit reveals one-third of cases may be missed

Breast cancer patients given wrong doses

Cancer treatment still involves luck of the draw

National review damns hospital cancer care

Even specialist units 'fail' patients needing emergency treatment

Hospitals may be using cancer cash to pay debts

Radiotherapy delays 'are leading to deaths'

Cured cancer patients succumb to treatment's long term side effects

Patient care hit by waiting list policy

Clinical judgment of doctors distorted by drive to cut health service delays
says report by parliamentary watchdog

Waiting lists continue to rise

Hospital closures
60 hospitals face axe in NHS reform
Dozens of hospitals face closure as a result of the biggest revolution in
the way local health care is delivered since the National Health Service was
created. (6 October 2002)

================================================== ======--

"I find medicine is the best of all trades because whether you do any good
or not you still get your money."
(Moliere: "A Physician in Spite of Himself," 1664)

Tsu Dho Poster
July 1st 03, 03:30 PM
> National health insurance is the obvious prescription
>
> By Quentin Young. Quentin Young is a Chicago physician and coordinator of
> Physicians for a National Health Program
> June 29, 2003
>
> I have practiced medicine in Chicago for more than 50 years, but these
days,
> I spend much of my time advocating for health-care reform.

Oh, I get it.....a half-century of milking the system (I gots mine) now you
advocate reform.
Ok, Dr. Theresa.

>>Like Presidents Harry Truman and John Kennedy,

Puh-leeze....I've read a lot about Kennedy........you, sir, are No John
Kennedy!

>>I propose that we adopt national health insurance, administered via the
government, as with Medicare and Social
>>Security.

Whether medicare/medicaide, or even education, whenever the government funds
programs the costs usually escalate.....thru the roof!
I have no faith in gubmint controlling costs. They'd probably opt for
rationing of services.

> The problems in our health system arise from a national penchant to treat
> health care as a commodity and to blindly pursue a free-market strategy
> despite the obvious differences between, say, health care and DVD players.

Right. "Health care" ( really _disease care) is a profit-motivated industry,
not unlike auto repair. Part of the problem is, doctors are trained
to use the most profitable treatment modalities, not necessarily the most
effective.

>>In practice, more than 18,000 people die every year for lack of coverage

In reality, if those 42 million had full access to $modern medicine$, about
33, 000 would die from various medical treatments.
(see JAMA article: Vol. 284. No. 4 - July 28, 2000 )

> Other nations' success
> Because national health insurance works well for the 20-odd wealthy,
> industrialized nations of the world--Taiwan's program adopted in the
> mid-1990s is the most recent success--

Other nations' Lack of success:
Don't know about Taiwan , (enjoyed Kaohsiung)
but here's a sample of newspaper headlines from the UK:
Most pertain to cancer treatment via their NHS (national health service)

enjoy.
------------------------------------------------
NHS cases pay for quick ops in South Africa:
South Africa is now becoming a favourite destination for British cancer
patients fleeing the NHS in a desperate search for life-saving treatment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Cash-strapped NHS hospitals chase private patient 'bonanza'

Patients are paying record amounts out of their own pockets to buy private
treatment from the National Health Service, which was set up to offer
services for free writes Anthony Browne. NHS audit
------------------------------------------------------------------
Deadly rise in wait for cancer care

More hospitals failing treatment targets. Doctors urge change as delays cost
lives

Britain's cancer scandal:
How thousands of cancer patients and doctors have been betrayed

25,000 deaths a year could be prevented if we matched Europe's best hospital
treatment,
reports health editor Anthony Browne

Waiting lists continue to rise

60 hospitals face axe in NHS reform

Revealed: one in four health employees is now a bureaucrat

Top cancer centre 'little more than slum'

Four senior doctors leave unit afflicted by lack of resources and years of
underspending

National review damns hospital cancer care

Experts warn funding and research has become dangerously 'skewed' in a way
which may be costing lives

-----------------------------------------------------------
Cancer: NHS 'failing breast cancer victims in north'
Sarah Boseley, health editor


Cancer test errors shock:
Audit reveals one-third of cases may be missed

Breast cancer patients given wrong doses

Cancer treatment still involves luck of the draw

National review damns hospital cancer care

Even specialist units 'fail' patients needing emergency treatment

Hospitals may be using cancer cash to pay debts

Radiotherapy delays 'are leading to deaths'

Cured cancer patients succumb to treatment's long term side effects

Patient care hit by waiting list policy

Clinical judgment of doctors distorted by drive to cut health service delays
says report by parliamentary watchdog

Waiting lists continue to rise

Hospital closures
60 hospitals face axe in NHS reform
Dozens of hospitals face closure as a result of the biggest revolution in
the way local health care is delivered since the National Health Service was
created. (6 October 2002)

================================================== ======--

"I find medicine is the best of all trades because whether you do any good
or not you still get your money."
(Moliere: "A Physician in Spite of Himself," 1664)

Tom Welch
July 1st 03, 04:06 PM
Albert Wagner said "Sounds like the
health insurance companies had
idiots for actuaries."

Actually, insurance companies are
pretty smart. Back in the 1960s,
1970s, and 1980s, when DEMOGRAPHICS
was clearly in their favor, they
took a lot of profits. Now that
DEMOGRAPHICS is nolonger in their
favor, they want to make insurance
unaffordable or get out of the
business all together.

What a sweat deal!

Tom Welch

PS: Wow! Another 10,000 people
turned 50 since yesterday's post.

Tom Welch
July 1st 03, 04:06 PM
Albert Wagner said "Sounds like the
health insurance companies had
idiots for actuaries."

Actually, insurance companies are
pretty smart. Back in the 1960s,
1970s, and 1980s, when DEMOGRAPHICS
was clearly in their favor, they
took a lot of profits. Now that
DEMOGRAPHICS is nolonger in their
favor, they want to make insurance
unaffordable or get out of the
business all together.

What a sweat deal!

Tom Welch

PS: Wow! Another 10,000 people
turned 50 since yesterday's post.

Albert Wagner
July 1st 03, 09:32 PM
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:09:27 -0400
"linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:

> "Albert Wagner" > wrote in message
> > "linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:
<snip>
> > > Funny, I hadn't been educated on that particular "fact." But what
> > > do I know; I'm just a lowly nurse.
>
> > Did you really expect to learn economics in nursing school?
>
> No, that's why I took economics in my undergraduate political science
> program, and got a master's in business management. And why I work as
> a clinical reimbursement coordinator, squeezing Medicare dollars into
> our nursing home. Didn't learn it in nursing school, though.

Nor does it sound like you are "just a lowly nurse."

Albert Wagner
July 1st 03, 09:32 PM
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:09:27 -0400
"linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:

> "Albert Wagner" > wrote in message
> > "linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:
<snip>
> > > Funny, I hadn't been educated on that particular "fact." But what
> > > do I know; I'm just a lowly nurse.
>
> > Did you really expect to learn economics in nursing school?
>
> No, that's why I took economics in my undergraduate political science
> program, and got a master's in business management. And why I work as
> a clinical reimbursement coordinator, squeezing Medicare dollars into
> our nursing home. Didn't learn it in nursing school, though.

Nor does it sound like you are "just a lowly nurse."

Elaine Jackson
July 1st 03, 11:31 PM
linda-renee remarked:
>> In the multitude of flamewars which have burned in m.c.f-l regarding this
topic, has anyone ever been so overwhelmed by the merits of the argument
that their opinion actually shifted from one side to the other?

I thought not. <<

A change of mind isn't visible on the net.

Anyway, this kind of discussion isn't about Converting The Unbeliever to
your particular One True Religion, it's about information flow running both
ways: it's about letting the bean-counters in gummint and in various 'health'
care organizations know what we think.
It's about letting them know that, if necessary, we'll vote away _their_
jobs so we won't be progressively impoverished by the rising costs of medical
intermediaries' profits.
It's about the mismanagement - the criminal lack of frugality - in the whole
sector of society which mediates our health care.

Thanks to the net, we've found out that there's more than enough healthcare
money for everybody right now... but a huge percentage of it is not being spent
on anybody's physical health.
There's no question that we could use a real-life action hero - FrugalMan! -
in red and blue spandex. But there's only us. So we're talking it over, as
citizens do.
Elaine J

Elaine Jackson
July 1st 03, 11:31 PM
linda-renee remarked:
>> In the multitude of flamewars which have burned in m.c.f-l regarding this
topic, has anyone ever been so overwhelmed by the merits of the argument
that their opinion actually shifted from one side to the other?

I thought not. <<

A change of mind isn't visible on the net.

Anyway, this kind of discussion isn't about Converting The Unbeliever to
your particular One True Religion, it's about information flow running both
ways: it's about letting the bean-counters in gummint and in various 'health'
care organizations know what we think.
It's about letting them know that, if necessary, we'll vote away _their_
jobs so we won't be progressively impoverished by the rising costs of medical
intermediaries' profits.
It's about the mismanagement - the criminal lack of frugality - in the whole
sector of society which mediates our health care.

Thanks to the net, we've found out that there's more than enough healthcare
money for everybody right now... but a huge percentage of it is not being spent
on anybody's physical health.
There's no question that we could use a real-life action hero - FrugalMan! -
in red and blue spandex. But there's only us. So we're talking it over, as
citizens do.
Elaine J

linda-renee
July 2nd 03, 12:35 AM
"Elaine Jackson" > wrote in message

> Thanks to the net, we've found out that there's more than enough
healthcare
> money for everybody right now... but a huge percentage of it is not being
spent
> on anybody's physical health.

Funny, I hadn't been educated on that particular "fact." But what do I
know; I'm just a lowly nurse.

linda-renee
July 2nd 03, 12:35 AM
"Elaine Jackson" > wrote in message

> Thanks to the net, we've found out that there's more than enough
healthcare
> money for everybody right now... but a huge percentage of it is not being
spent
> on anybody's physical health.

Funny, I hadn't been educated on that particular "fact." But what do I
know; I'm just a lowly nurse.

The Real Bev
July 2nd 03, 06:57 AM
Albert Wagner wrote:
>
> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:09:27 -0400
> "linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:
>
> > "Albert Wagner" > wrote in message
> > > "linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:
> <snip>
> > > > Funny, I hadn't been educated on that particular "fact." But what
> > > > do I know; I'm just a lowly nurse.
> >
> > > Did you really expect to learn economics in nursing school?
> >
> > No, that's why I took economics in my undergraduate political science
> > program, and got a master's in business management. And why I work as
> > a clinical reimbursement coordinator, squeezing Medicare dollars into
> > our nursing home. Didn't learn it in nursing school, though.
>
> Nor does it sound like you are "just a lowly nurse."

None of the good ones are "just a lowly nurse." They're the nice people
who keep you alive long enough for the doctor to collect his $200 for
saying "Hi, how ya doin'?" and rattling the papers in your chart.

--
Cheers,
Bev
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxx
"It is a matter of regret that many low, mean suspicions
turn out to be well-founded." -- Edgar Watson Howe

The Real Bev
July 2nd 03, 06:57 AM
Albert Wagner wrote:
>
> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:09:27 -0400
> "linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:
>
> > "Albert Wagner" > wrote in message
> > > "linda-renee" <[email protected]!net.> wrote:
> <snip>
> > > > Funny, I hadn't been educated on that particular "fact." But what
> > > > do I know; I'm just a lowly nurse.
> >
> > > Did you really expect to learn economics in nursing school?
> >
> > No, that's why I took economics in my undergraduate political science
> > program, and got a master's in business management. And why I work as
> > a clinical reimbursement coordinator, squeezing Medicare dollars into
> > our nursing home. Didn't learn it in nursing school, though.
>
> Nor does it sound like you are "just a lowly nurse."

None of the good ones are "just a lowly nurse." They're the nice people
who keep you alive long enough for the doctor to collect his $200 for
saying "Hi, how ya doin'?" and rattling the papers in your chart.

--
Cheers,
Bev
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxx
"It is a matter of regret that many low, mean suspicions
turn out to be well-founded." -- Edgar Watson Howe

Tom Welch
July 2nd 03, 09:05 PM
"doctors are trained to use most profitable
treatment modalities, not necessarily the
most effective."

When a drug is going through the FDA
approval process, the new drug is NOT
tested against older and more effective
drugs already on the market, so that
many folks pay the higher prices for
new drugs when in fact less expensive
and more effective alternatives are
available in the marketplace.

Tom Welch










"Tsu Dho Poster" > wrote in message >...
> > National health insurance is the obvious prescription
> >
> > By Quentin Young. Quentin Young is a Chicago physician and coordinator of
> > Physicians for a National Health Program
> > June 29, 2003
> >
> > I have practiced medicine in Chicago for more than 50 years, but these
> days,
> > I spend much of my time advocating for health-care reform.
>
> Oh, I get it.....a half-century of milking the system (I gots mine) now you
> advocate reform.
> Ok, Dr. Theresa.
>
> >>Like Presidents Harry Truman and John Kennedy,
>
> Puh-leeze....I've read a lot about Kennedy........you, sir, are No John
> Kennedy!
>
> >>I propose that we adopt national health insurance, administered via the
> government, as with Medicare and Social
> >>Security.
>
> Whether medicare/medicaide, or even education, whenever the government funds
> programs the costs usually escalate.....thru the roof!
> I have no faith in gubmint controlling costs. They'd probably opt for
> rationing of services.
>
> > The problems in our health system arise from a national penchant to treat
> > health care as a commodity and to blindly pursue a free-market strategy
> > despite the obvious differences between, say, health care and DVD players.
>
> Right. "Health care" ( really _disease care) is a profit-motivated industry,
> not unlike auto repair. Part of the problem is, doctors are trained
> to use the most profitable treatment modalities, not necessarily the most
> effective.
>
> >>In practice, more than 18,000 people die every year for lack of coverage
>
> In reality, if those 42 million had full access to $modern medicine$, about
> 33, 000 would die from various medical treatments.
> (see JAMA article: Vol. 284. No. 4 - July 28, 2000 )
>
> > Other nations' success
> > Because national health insurance works well for the 20-odd wealthy,
> > industrialized nations of the world--Taiwan's program adopted in the
> > mid-1990s is the most recent success--
>
> Other nations' Lack of success:
> Don't know about Taiwan , (enjoyed Kaohsiung)
> but here's a sample of newspaper headlines from the UK:
> Most pertain to cancer treatment via their NHS (national health service)
>
> enjoy.
> ------------------------------------------------
> NHS cases pay for quick ops in South Africa:
> South Africa is now becoming a favourite destination for British cancer
> patients fleeing the NHS in a desperate search for life-saving treatment.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cash-strapped NHS hospitals chase private patient 'bonanza'
>
> Patients are paying record amounts out of their own pockets to buy private
> treatment from the National Health Service, which was set up to offer
> services for free writes Anthony Browne. NHS audit
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Deadly rise in wait for cancer care
>
> More hospitals failing treatment targets. Doctors urge change as delays cost
> lives
>
> Britain's cancer scandal:
> How thousands of cancer patients and doctors have been betrayed
>
> 25,000 deaths a year could be prevented if we matched Europe's best hospital
> treatment,
> reports health editor Anthony Browne
>
> Waiting lists continue to rise
>
> 60 hospitals face axe in NHS reform
>
> Revealed: one in four health employees is now a bureaucrat
>
> Top cancer centre 'little more than slum'
>
> Four senior doctors leave unit afflicted by lack of resources and years of
> underspending
>
> National review damns hospital cancer care
>
> Experts warn funding and research has become dangerously 'skewed' in a way
> which may be costing lives
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Cancer: NHS 'failing breast cancer victims in north'
> Sarah Boseley, health editor
>
>
> Cancer test errors shock:
> Audit reveals one-third of cases may be missed
>
> Breast cancer patients given wrong doses
>
> Cancer treatment still involves luck of the draw
>
> National review damns hospital cancer care
>
> Even specialist units 'fail' patients needing emergency treatment
>
> Hospitals may be using cancer cash to pay debts
>
> Radiotherapy delays 'are leading to deaths'
>
> Cured cancer patients succumb to treatment's long term side effects
>
> Patient care hit by waiting list policy
>
> Clinical judgment of doctors distorted by drive to cut health service delays
> says report by parliamentary watchdog
>
> Waiting lists continue to rise
>
> Hospital closures
> 60 hospitals face axe in NHS reform
> Dozens of hospitals face closure as a result of the biggest revolution in
> the way local health care is delivered since the National Health Service was
> created. (6 October 2002)
>
> ================================================== ======--
>
> "I find medicine is the best of all trades because whether you do any good
> or not you still get your money."
> (Moliere: "A Physician in Spite of Himself," 1664)

Tom Welch
July 2nd 03, 09:05 PM
"doctors are trained to use most profitable
treatment modalities, not necessarily the
most effective."

When a drug is going through the FDA
approval process, the new drug is NOT
tested against older and more effective
drugs already on the market, so that
many folks pay the higher prices for
new drugs when in fact less expensive
and more effective alternatives are
available in the marketplace.

Tom Welch










"Tsu Dho Poster" > wrote in message >...
> > National health insurance is the obvious prescription
> >
> > By Quentin Young. Quentin Young is a Chicago physician and coordinator of
> > Physicians for a National Health Program
> > June 29, 2003
> >
> > I have practiced medicine in Chicago for more than 50 years, but these
> days,
> > I spend much of my time advocating for health-care reform.
>
> Oh, I get it.....a half-century of milking the system (I gots mine) now you
> advocate reform.
> Ok, Dr. Theresa.
>
> >>Like Presidents Harry Truman and John Kennedy,
>
> Puh-leeze....I've read a lot about Kennedy........you, sir, are No John
> Kennedy!
>
> >>I propose that we adopt national health insurance, administered via the
> government, as with Medicare and Social
> >>Security.
>
> Whether medicare/medicaide, or even education, whenever the government funds
> programs the costs usually escalate.....thru the roof!
> I have no faith in gubmint controlling costs. They'd probably opt for
> rationing of services.
>
> > The problems in our health system arise from a national penchant to treat
> > health care as a commodity and to blindly pursue a free-market strategy
> > despite the obvious differences between, say, health care and DVD players.
>
> Right. "Health care" ( really _disease care) is a profit-motivated industry,
> not unlike auto repair. Part of the problem is, doctors are trained
> to use the most profitable treatment modalities, not necessarily the most
> effective.
>
> >>In practice, more than 18,000 people die every year for lack of coverage
>
> In reality, if those 42 million had full access to $modern medicine$, about
> 33, 000 would die from various medical treatments.
> (see JAMA article: Vol. 284. No. 4 - July 28, 2000 )
>
> > Other nations' success
> > Because national health insurance works well for the 20-odd wealthy,
> > industrialized nations of the world--Taiwan's program adopted in the
> > mid-1990s is the most recent success--
>
> Other nations' Lack of success:
> Don't know about Taiwan , (enjoyed Kaohsiung)
> but here's a sample of newspaper headlines from the UK:
> Most pertain to cancer treatment via their NHS (national health service)
>
> enjoy.
> ------------------------------------------------
> NHS cases pay for quick ops in South Africa:
> South Africa is now becoming a favourite destination for British cancer
> patients fleeing the NHS in a desperate search for life-saving treatment.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cash-strapped NHS hospitals chase private patient 'bonanza'
>
> Patients are paying record amounts out of their own pockets to buy private
> treatment from the National Health Service, which was set up to offer
> services for free writes Anthony Browne. NHS audit
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Deadly rise in wait for cancer care
>
> More hospitals failing treatment targets. Doctors urge change as delays cost
> lives
>
> Britain's cancer scandal:
> How thousands of cancer patients and doctors have been betrayed
>
> 25,000 deaths a year could be prevented if we matched Europe's best hospital
> treatment,
> reports health editor Anthony Browne
>
> Waiting lists continue to rise
>
> 60 hospitals face axe in NHS reform
>
> Revealed: one in four health employees is now a bureaucrat
>
> Top cancer centre 'little more than slum'
>
> Four senior doctors leave unit afflicted by lack of resources and years of
> underspending
>
> National review damns hospital cancer care
>
> Experts warn funding and research has become dangerously 'skewed' in a way
> which may be costing lives
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Cancer: NHS 'failing breast cancer victims in north'
> Sarah Boseley, health editor
>
>
> Cancer test errors shock:
> Audit reveals one-third of cases may be missed
>
> Breast cancer patients given wrong doses
>
> Cancer treatment still involves luck of the draw
>
> National review damns hospital cancer care
>
> Even specialist units 'fail' patients needing emergency treatment
>
> Hospitals may be using cancer cash to pay debts
>
> Radiotherapy delays 'are leading to deaths'
>
> Cured cancer patients succumb to treatment's long term side effects
>
> Patient care hit by waiting list policy
>
> Clinical judgment of doctors distorted by drive to cut health service delays
> says report by parliamentary watchdog
>
> Waiting lists continue to rise
>
> Hospital closures
> 60 hospitals face axe in NHS reform
> Dozens of hospitals face closure as a result of the biggest revolution in
> the way local health care is delivered since the National Health Service was
> created. (6 October 2002)
>
> ================================================== ======--
>
> "I find medicine is the best of all trades because whether you do any good
> or not you still get your money."
> (Moliere: "A Physician in Spite of Himself," 1664)

Tsu Dho Poster
July 3rd 03, 12:13 AM
"Elaine Jackson" > wrote in message
news:20030701173
> l
> It's about the mismanagement - the criminal lack of frugality - in the
whole
> sector of society which mediates our health care.

Lack of frugality is a crime...?? What if it's a genetic disorder...they're
missing the Frugal gene...?
(and stop calling it "health care"...it's _Disease Care_. $The Big Bucks$
are in symptomatic relief After the fact)

> There's no question that we could use a real-life action hero -
FrugalMan! -
> in red and blue spandex.

It's a tough job, but I could do it if I could get rid of our bribery-based
form of gubmint. I'd have to rule like that Saddam-guy.

Tsu Dho Poster
July 3rd 03, 12:13 AM
"Elaine Jackson" > wrote in message
news:20030701173
> l
> It's about the mismanagement - the criminal lack of frugality - in the
whole
> sector of society which mediates our health care.

Lack of frugality is a crime...?? What if it's a genetic disorder...they're
missing the Frugal gene...?
(and stop calling it "health care"...it's _Disease Care_. $The Big Bucks$
are in symptomatic relief After the fact)

> There's no question that we could use a real-life action hero -
FrugalMan! -
> in red and blue spandex.

It's a tough job, but I could do it if I could get rid of our bribery-based
form of gubmint. I'd have to rule like that Saddam-guy.

Elaine Jackson
July 4th 03, 02:16 PM
Alpha Male, writing as Pseudo Poster, wrote:
>> It's about the mismanagement - the criminal lack of frugality - in the
whole
>> sector of society which mediates our health care.

>Lack of frugality is a crime...??

You bet, when it's *our* money they're squirreling away in offshore
accounts, throwing to the winds, and burning in their vacation-home fireplaces
on chilly evenings, and otherwise not applying to medicine.

>What if it's a genetic disorder...they're
>missing the Frugal gene...?

Maybe, tho I notice that nobody who's sober seems to be missing the FrGene
when it's their own money. I'm betting it's a lack of the Honesty gene. So,
DNA testing for all of 'em - after all the rest of us have had our medical
needs seen to, using the money they already have, of course.

>(and stop calling it "health care"...it's _Disease Care_. $The Big Bucks$
>are in symptomatic relief After the fact)

Hm. Well, I'm some unknown but significant amount older than you. As a kid
I read hundreds of very old books because they were cheap, (no, I'm not
kidding) so my writing is admittedly a bit on the richly textured, graceful,
verbose LateVictorian/Early20thCen style, in which quotes around "health care"
mean that the veracity of a term or idea is negated. IOW, it's a subtle but
definite sneer.
Actual health care would be called exactly that. The present chaotic
how-much-dough-can-middlemen-sneak-from-the-cash-register system is "health
care".

>> There's no question that we could use a real-life action hero -FrugalMan!
-
>> in red and blue spandex.

>It's a tough job, but I could do it if I could get rid of our bribery-based
>form of gubmint. I'd have to rule like that Saddam-guy.

Uh huh, me too. Just eternal benevolence...our way... Or Else.
All humankind wants to rule like that, except the vast majority of us would
leave out the optional torture&tyranny procedures.
That's why eternal vigilance is the price of pretty much everything from
freedom to making sure hospitals don't bill us $15 apiece for aspirin to
watching our own behavior for signs of incipient despotism.

Have good Fourth, folks! Y'all come on over to our place after dark, we're
planning a modest number of (legal) fireworks to liven up the neighborhood.
:^)
Elaine J

Elaine Jackson
July 4th 03, 02:16 PM
Alpha Male, writing as Pseudo Poster, wrote:
>> It's about the mismanagement - the criminal lack of frugality - in the
whole
>> sector of society which mediates our health care.

>Lack of frugality is a crime...??

You bet, when it's *our* money they're squirreling away in offshore
accounts, throwing to the winds, and burning in their vacation-home fireplaces
on chilly evenings, and otherwise not applying to medicine.

>What if it's a genetic disorder...they're
>missing the Frugal gene...?

Maybe, tho I notice that nobody who's sober seems to be missing the FrGene
when it's their own money. I'm betting it's a lack of the Honesty gene. So,
DNA testing for all of 'em - after all the rest of us have had our medical
needs seen to, using the money they already have, of course.

>(and stop calling it "health care"...it's _Disease Care_. $The Big Bucks$
>are in symptomatic relief After the fact)

Hm. Well, I'm some unknown but significant amount older than you. As a kid
I read hundreds of very old books because they were cheap, (no, I'm not
kidding) so my writing is admittedly a bit on the richly textured, graceful,
verbose LateVictorian/Early20thCen style, in which quotes around "health care"
mean that the veracity of a term or idea is negated. IOW, it's a subtle but
definite sneer.
Actual health care would be called exactly that. The present chaotic
how-much-dough-can-middlemen-sneak-from-the-cash-register system is "health
care".

>> There's no question that we could use a real-life action hero -FrugalMan!
-
>> in red and blue spandex.

>It's a tough job, but I could do it if I could get rid of our bribery-based
>form of gubmint. I'd have to rule like that Saddam-guy.

Uh huh, me too. Just eternal benevolence...our way... Or Else.
All humankind wants to rule like that, except the vast majority of us would
leave out the optional torture&tyranny procedures.
That's why eternal vigilance is the price of pretty much everything from
freedom to making sure hospitals don't bill us $15 apiece for aspirin to
watching our own behavior for signs of incipient despotism.

Have good Fourth, folks! Y'all come on over to our place after dark, we're
planning a modest number of (legal) fireworks to liven up the neighborhood.
:^)
Elaine J

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