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Duran
July 4th 03, 05:14 AM
I am fairly new to the United States...

I have found an exceptional car that I want to buy and feel purchasing it
with a loan makes sense as I probably won't see this good of a used car
('92) again. I went to my bank and they want to charge me 10% interest
because of the year of the car (their words). This took me by quite a
surprise. Is this common in the US to vary the interest rates like this
depending on what you purchase with the money loaned to you?

SoCalMike
July 4th 03, 11:38 AM
>
> It's a '92 Honda Accord LX (I've owned same year / model before) with only
> 35,000 miles on it, one owner, and I know the owner. Exceptionally clean
> inside and out, well maintained, reasonable price.

cant be that much, and sounds like a nice car. not sure if the banks would
take bonds as collateral, but it would probably be best to either ...


shop around for a lower rate elsewhere
get a personal loan, with whatever theyll take as collateral... the bonds?
other property?
home equity loan? credit union?
liquidate what you need to in order to pay cash... youre already hopefully
getting a great deal- why pay any interest at all?

basically, all they see is an 11 year old car, regardless of condition or
mileage. and they want their 10%.

SoCalMike
July 4th 03, 11:38 AM
>
> It's a '92 Honda Accord LX (I've owned same year / model before) with only
> 35,000 miles on it, one owner, and I know the owner. Exceptionally clean
> inside and out, well maintained, reasonable price.

cant be that much, and sounds like a nice car. not sure if the banks would
take bonds as collateral, but it would probably be best to either ...


shop around for a lower rate elsewhere
get a personal loan, with whatever theyll take as collateral... the bonds?
other property?
home equity loan? credit union?
liquidate what you need to in order to pay cash... youre already hopefully
getting a great deal- why pay any interest at all?

basically, all they see is an 11 year old car, regardless of condition or
mileage. and they want their 10%.

SoCalMike
July 4th 03, 08:40 PM
>
> Doesn't the 0% financing offer usually include a choice between
> borrowing at "0%", or paying cash and getting a couple thousand
> bucks knocked off the price?

if theyre hurting, theyll do both. its not necessarily an either/or
situation. KBB or edmunds has the invoice price, which is what the dealer
pays. on a model like the pontiac aztek, i imagine you could get one at or
below invoice, with 0%. and youd never have to worry about anyone stealing
it.

SoCalMike
July 4th 03, 08:40 PM
>
> Doesn't the 0% financing offer usually include a choice between
> borrowing at "0%", or paying cash and getting a couple thousand
> bucks knocked off the price?

if theyre hurting, theyll do both. its not necessarily an either/or
situation. KBB or edmunds has the invoice price, which is what the dealer
pays. on a model like the pontiac aztek, i imagine you could get one at or
below invoice, with 0%. and youd never have to worry about anyone stealing
it.

SoCalMike
July 4th 03, 08:44 PM
> car I am getting. I have no intention of taking on a 10% note, that is
much
> to high for me. Since I need the car I will have to either A) shop around
> for a lower rate or B) take out a loan with a family member.

thats true. in the whole scheme of things, its not like 10% is usurous.
there are people with **** credit that dont even blink at having to pay 20%
on a new car... they just accept it. thats said... what if you took the 10%
loan, and just paid it off as fast as possible? or refinanced it? threw it
on a 0% credit card for 6 mos, then bounced it to another one?

sometimes its just easier to pay the 10%. heh.

SoCalMike
July 4th 03, 08:44 PM
> car I am getting. I have no intention of taking on a 10% note, that is
much
> to high for me. Since I need the car I will have to either A) shop around
> for a lower rate or B) take out a loan with a family member.

thats true. in the whole scheme of things, its not like 10% is usurous.
there are people with **** credit that dont even blink at having to pay 20%
on a new car... they just accept it. thats said... what if you took the 10%
loan, and just paid it off as fast as possible? or refinanced it? threw it
on a 0% credit card for 6 mos, then bounced it to another one?

sometimes its just easier to pay the 10%. heh.

SoCalMike
July 4th 03, 08:47 PM
"SlinkyToy" > wrote in message
. ..
> I would recommend two things: join a credit union, and shop dealerships
for
> program cars

hes already found *the* car, no more like it. he just needs to swing the
financing... im guesssing hed be paying to a private party.

about the car... tho it has 35k miles, id seriously recommend replacing the
timing belt and water pump... theyre both 11 years old.

SoCalMike
July 4th 03, 08:47 PM
"SlinkyToy" > wrote in message
. ..
> I would recommend two things: join a credit union, and shop dealerships
for
> program cars

hes already found *the* car, no more like it. he just needs to swing the
financing... im guesssing hed be paying to a private party.

about the car... tho it has 35k miles, id seriously recommend replacing the
timing belt and water pump... theyre both 11 years old.

SlinkyToy
July 5th 03, 01:08 AM
Right. Would YOU finance a 12-year old car if YOU were buying it?

"SoCalMike" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "SlinkyToy" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > I would recommend two things: join a credit union, and shop dealerships
> for
> > program cars
>
> hes already found *the* car, no more like it. he just needs to swing the
> financing... im guesssing hed be paying to a private party.
>
> about the car... tho it has 35k miles, id seriously recommend replacing
the
> timing belt and water pump... theyre both 11 years old.
>
>

SlinkyToy
July 5th 03, 01:08 AM
Right. Would YOU finance a 12-year old car if YOU were buying it?

"SoCalMike" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "SlinkyToy" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > I would recommend two things: join a credit union, and shop dealerships
> for
> > program cars
>
> hes already found *the* car, no more like it. he just needs to swing the
> financing... im guesssing hed be paying to a private party.
>
> about the car... tho it has 35k miles, id seriously recommend replacing
the
> timing belt and water pump... theyre both 11 years old.
>
>

SoCalMike
July 5th 03, 11:11 AM
"SlinkyToy" > wrote in message
. ..
> Right. Would YOU finance a 12-year old car if YOU were buying it?

if i had no cash? and it was a 12 year old mint condition accord with 35k
miles? shouldnt take more than 2 years to pay off, max. say its $6k for the
car... make it $7200 with interest. thats $300/mo for 2 years. i dunno if i
could pay more than $6k for an accord that old, no matter how mint.

SoCalMike
July 5th 03, 11:11 AM
"SlinkyToy" > wrote in message
. ..
> Right. Would YOU finance a 12-year old car if YOU were buying it?

if i had no cash? and it was a 12 year old mint condition accord with 35k
miles? shouldnt take more than 2 years to pay off, max. say its $6k for the
car... make it $7200 with interest. thats $300/mo for 2 years. i dunno if i
could pay more than $6k for an accord that old, no matter how mint.

dogsnus
July 5th 03, 05:58 PM
"Duran" > wrote in
:

>> > Maybe in some cases, other cases you have no choice.
>>
>>
>> HA bull****. "Having no choice" is the way those payments are
justified.
>
> I will re-post a clip of my original post you are replying too...
>
><REPOST>
> What if I just converted to frugality, just moved out on my own, don't
have
> any savings and
> don't own a car...what would your suggestion be here? Save for years to
> purchase a car that I need now?
Yes, I am proposing that. Or, find someone to ride with and help pay
for gas.


(Walking and public transportation or not
> feasable options).
></REPOST>
>
> No savings, need car now, walking / public transportation not feasable.
> Where is my choice?
>
> I invited the poster I originally replied too to give suggestions on how
to
> get the car without financing. Maybe I wasn't clear, but this invitation
> extends to you as well.

Please don't lump me in with Elaine.
Shudder...
I understand that most folks can't understand this concept, but I"m
not saying, "Ha, BS".
I"m saying, if your goal is set and firm, you'll find a way to save
money to buy an older, but reliable beater to get you around.
Of course, I happen to be married to a guy who can fix just about
anything.
And, that's what we do, fix it up the old car until we can save enough
to buy another car outright.
For example, I have an older Subaru Wagon with 4WD right now for sale.
It's got lots of miles on it, but it runs just fine. I'm asking 600.00
for it.
Is it fancy? No. But there is only one dent on the body in the tail light
area.
It will do someone just fine for a good long while until they can save
up enough to get a newer car.




It is very easy to say "HA, BS", now, let's see
> some ideas that you have....after all, you must have some ideas, as car
> payments always must be "justified".

Okay, sometimes maybe they are, but not for a new car. Only an older
one that can be paid off in record time. As in the case of my older
car I"m selling, I can't imagine financing the 600.00
Sometimes, to keep from going into debt for a car one must drive
an old beater to do so for awhile and save up enough money to
get that nice newer car.

That's my belief and I hold to it firmly.
It's served me well for many years.

Terri

dogsnus
July 5th 03, 05:58 PM
"Duran" > wrote in
:

>> > Maybe in some cases, other cases you have no choice.
>>
>>
>> HA bull****. "Having no choice" is the way those payments are
justified.
>
> I will re-post a clip of my original post you are replying too...
>
><REPOST>
> What if I just converted to frugality, just moved out on my own, don't
have
> any savings and
> don't own a car...what would your suggestion be here? Save for years to
> purchase a car that I need now?
Yes, I am proposing that. Or, find someone to ride with and help pay
for gas.


(Walking and public transportation or not
> feasable options).
></REPOST>
>
> No savings, need car now, walking / public transportation not feasable.
> Where is my choice?
>
> I invited the poster I originally replied too to give suggestions on how
to
> get the car without financing. Maybe I wasn't clear, but this invitation
> extends to you as well.

Please don't lump me in with Elaine.
Shudder...
I understand that most folks can't understand this concept, but I"m
not saying, "Ha, BS".
I"m saying, if your goal is set and firm, you'll find a way to save
money to buy an older, but reliable beater to get you around.
Of course, I happen to be married to a guy who can fix just about
anything.
And, that's what we do, fix it up the old car until we can save enough
to buy another car outright.
For example, I have an older Subaru Wagon with 4WD right now for sale.
It's got lots of miles on it, but it runs just fine. I'm asking 600.00
for it.
Is it fancy? No. But there is only one dent on the body in the tail light
area.
It will do someone just fine for a good long while until they can save
up enough to get a newer car.




It is very easy to say "HA, BS", now, let's see
> some ideas that you have....after all, you must have some ideas, as car
> payments always must be "justified".

Okay, sometimes maybe they are, but not for a new car. Only an older
one that can be paid off in record time. As in the case of my older
car I"m selling, I can't imagine financing the 600.00
Sometimes, to keep from going into debt for a car one must drive
an old beater to do so for awhile and save up enough money to
get that nice newer car.

That's my belief and I hold to it firmly.
It's served me well for many years.

Terri

Edgar S.
July 5th 03, 07:32 PM
"Duran" > wrote in message >...
> > > Maybe in some cases, other cases you have no choice.
> >
> >
> > HA bull****. "Having no choice" is the way those payments are justified.
>
> I will re-post a clip of my original post you are replying too...
>
> <REPOST>
> What if

"What if" is the hallmark of attempting to justify credit purchases.

Edgar S.
July 5th 03, 07:32 PM
"Duran" > wrote in message >...
> > > Maybe in some cases, other cases you have no choice.
> >
> >
> > HA bull****. "Having no choice" is the way those payments are justified.
>
> I will re-post a clip of my original post you are replying too...
>
> <REPOST>
> What if

"What if" is the hallmark of attempting to justify credit purchases.

linda-renee
July 6th 03, 11:11 PM
"dogsnus" > wrote in message

> I"m saying, if your goal is set and firm, you'll find a way to save
> money to buy an older, but reliable beater to get you around.
> Of course, I happen to be married to a guy who can fix just about
> anything.

And, heaven forbid something happens to your husband? Do you know how to
repair an older car? I don't and I won't pretend I'm going to learn. I've
had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
how to fix them.

I will only buy new, as long as I am employed. That said, my current
vehicle, bought new, is now four years old, and I plan to hang onto it for
as long as possible.

>Sometimes, to keep from going into debt for a car one must drive
>an old beater to do so for awhile and save up enough money to
>get that nice newer car.
> That's my belief and I hold to it firmly.
> It's served me well for many years.

I spent enough money on multiple repairs in the three years I owned the last
used vehicle to finance quite a few new car payments.

linda-renee
July 6th 03, 11:11 PM
"dogsnus" > wrote in message

> I"m saying, if your goal is set and firm, you'll find a way to save
> money to buy an older, but reliable beater to get you around.
> Of course, I happen to be married to a guy who can fix just about
> anything.

And, heaven forbid something happens to your husband? Do you know how to
repair an older car? I don't and I won't pretend I'm going to learn. I've
had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
how to fix them.

I will only buy new, as long as I am employed. That said, my current
vehicle, bought new, is now four years old, and I plan to hang onto it for
as long as possible.

>Sometimes, to keep from going into debt for a car one must drive
>an old beater to do so for awhile and save up enough money to
>get that nice newer car.
> That's my belief and I hold to it firmly.
> It's served me well for many years.

I spent enough money on multiple repairs in the three years I owned the last
used vehicle to finance quite a few new car payments.

linda-renee
July 6th 03, 11:13 PM
"lpogoda" > wrote in message

> dogsnus wrote in message ...

> >I myself prefer to have that cash on hand and NOT
> >go throught a bunch of hoops to finance one.

> Never jumped through a hoop in my life, let alone a bunch of them, to get
> any kind of loan.

Me neither. The last loan was handled by a sight draft provided in advance
by my bank. No credit application whatsoever. And without reliable
transportation to get to my job--that means NOT an old car--there's no cash
of any type to be saved or spent.

linda-renee
July 6th 03, 11:13 PM
"lpogoda" > wrote in message

> dogsnus wrote in message ...

> >I myself prefer to have that cash on hand and NOT
> >go throught a bunch of hoops to finance one.

> Never jumped through a hoop in my life, let alone a bunch of them, to get
> any kind of loan.

Me neither. The last loan was handled by a sight draft provided in advance
by my bank. No credit application whatsoever. And without reliable
transportation to get to my job--that means NOT an old car--there's no cash
of any type to be saved or spent.

The Real Bev
July 6th 03, 11:52 PM
linda-renee wrote:
>
> "dogsnus" > wrote in message
>
> > I"m saying, if your goal is set and firm, you'll find a way to save
> > money to buy an older, but reliable beater to get you around.
> > Of course, I happen to be married to a guy who can fix just about
> > anything.
>
> And, heaven forbid something happens to your husband? Do you know how to
> repair an older car? I don't and I won't pretend I'm going to learn.

At least older cars ARE fixable without special dealer-only diagnostic
instruments. The only repair for a failed computer, which means that
NOTHING in your car will work, is replacing the computer. I'd rather
spend that much money on a REAL computer, wouldn't you?

> I've
> had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
> by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
> how to fix them.

Good reason for him to be your ex-boyfriend.

--
Cheers, Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(On going to war over religion:) "You're basically killing each other
to see who's got the better imaginary friend." -- Rich Jeni

The Real Bev
July 6th 03, 11:52 PM
linda-renee wrote:
>
> "dogsnus" > wrote in message
>
> > I"m saying, if your goal is set and firm, you'll find a way to save
> > money to buy an older, but reliable beater to get you around.
> > Of course, I happen to be married to a guy who can fix just about
> > anything.
>
> And, heaven forbid something happens to your husband? Do you know how to
> repair an older car? I don't and I won't pretend I'm going to learn.

At least older cars ARE fixable without special dealer-only diagnostic
instruments. The only repair for a failed computer, which means that
NOTHING in your car will work, is replacing the computer. I'd rather
spend that much money on a REAL computer, wouldn't you?

> I've
> had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
> by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
> how to fix them.

Good reason for him to be your ex-boyfriend.

--
Cheers, Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(On going to war over religion:) "You're basically killing each other
to see who's got the better imaginary friend." -- Rich Jeni

lpogoda
July 7th 03, 01:16 AM
linda-renee wrote in message ...
>"dogsnus" > wrote in message
>
>> I"m saying, if your goal is set and firm, you'll find a way to save
>> money to buy an older, but reliable beater to get you around.
>> Of course, I happen to be married to a guy who can fix just about
>> anything.
>
>And, heaven forbid something happens to your husband? Do you know how to
>repair an older car? I don't and I won't pretend I'm going to learn. I've
>had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
>by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
>how to fix them.
>
>I will only buy new, as long as I am employed. That said, my current
>vehicle, bought new, is now four years old, and I plan to hang onto it for
>as long as possible.
>
>>Sometimes, to keep from going into debt for a car one must drive
>>an old beater to do so for awhile and save up enough money to
>>get that nice newer car.
>> That's my belief and I hold to it firmly.
>> It's served me well for many years.
>
>I spent enough money on multiple repairs in the three years I owned the
last
>used vehicle to finance quite a few new car payments.
>
Yeah, I had one like that once. It'd have a "minor" problem and I'd drop it
off at the garage. They'd pick me up after work, I'd put the bill on my gas
card, and drive home. A week later, my wife would have the car, there'd be
a minor problem, and she'd do the same thing. One month I'm paying the
bills and just by chance the bill for her card and the bill for my card are
in the pile at the same time. The combined minimum payment for the repairs
was more than the payment on a new car would be.

Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm going to
Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the least
inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills, though.)

lpogoda
July 7th 03, 01:16 AM
linda-renee wrote in message ...
>"dogsnus" > wrote in message
>
>> I"m saying, if your goal is set and firm, you'll find a way to save
>> money to buy an older, but reliable beater to get you around.
>> Of course, I happen to be married to a guy who can fix just about
>> anything.
>
>And, heaven forbid something happens to your husband? Do you know how to
>repair an older car? I don't and I won't pretend I'm going to learn. I've
>had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
>by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
>how to fix them.
>
>I will only buy new, as long as I am employed. That said, my current
>vehicle, bought new, is now four years old, and I plan to hang onto it for
>as long as possible.
>
>>Sometimes, to keep from going into debt for a car one must drive
>>an old beater to do so for awhile and save up enough money to
>>get that nice newer car.
>> That's my belief and I hold to it firmly.
>> It's served me well for many years.
>
>I spent enough money on multiple repairs in the three years I owned the
last
>used vehicle to finance quite a few new car payments.
>
Yeah, I had one like that once. It'd have a "minor" problem and I'd drop it
off at the garage. They'd pick me up after work, I'd put the bill on my gas
card, and drive home. A week later, my wife would have the car, there'd be
a minor problem, and she'd do the same thing. One month I'm paying the
bills and just by chance the bill for her card and the bill for my card are
in the pile at the same time. The combined minimum payment for the repairs
was more than the payment on a new car would be.

Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm going to
Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the least
inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills, though.)

The Real Bev
July 7th 03, 02:59 AM
lpogoda wrote:
>
> The Real Bev wrote in message >...
> >linda-renee wrote:
> >> I've
> >> had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
> >> by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
> >> how to fix them.
> >
> >Good reason for him to be your ex-boyfriend.
> >
> Er, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it that only males who know
> how to fix cars are eligible for the state of boy-friend-hood? Or that
> males who sell cars are not eligible for elevation to that exalted state?

Nonono. A man who would sell a crappy car to his girlfriend should be
shot -- he's lucky she let him get away.

--
Cheers, Bev
================================================== ============
"Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special
Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded."

The Real Bev
July 7th 03, 02:59 AM
lpogoda wrote:
>
> The Real Bev wrote in message >...
> >linda-renee wrote:
> >> I've
> >> had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
> >> by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
> >> how to fix them.
> >
> >Good reason for him to be your ex-boyfriend.
> >
> Er, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it that only males who know
> how to fix cars are eligible for the state of boy-friend-hood? Or that
> males who sell cars are not eligible for elevation to that exalted state?

Nonono. A man who would sell a crappy car to his girlfriend should be
shot -- he's lucky she let him get away.

--
Cheers, Bev
================================================== ============
"Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special
Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded."

root
July 7th 03, 10:55 AM
lpogoda > wrote:
> The combined minimum payment for the repairs
> was more than the payment on a new car would be.
>
> Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm going to
> Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the least
> inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills, though.)
>

We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
more economical to repair than buy new.

root
July 7th 03, 10:55 AM
lpogoda > wrote:
> The combined minimum payment for the repairs
> was more than the payment on a new car would be.
>
> Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm going to
> Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the least
> inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills, though.)
>

We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
more economical to repair than buy new.

linda-renee
July 7th 03, 01:15 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
> more economical to repair than buy new.

Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither Lou
nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.

linda-renee
July 7th 03, 01:15 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
> more economical to repair than buy new.

Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither Lou
nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.

The Real Bev
July 8th 03, 12:06 AM
lpogoda wrote:
>
> The Real Bev > wrote:
> > lpogoda wrote:
> > > The Real Bev wrote:
> > > >linda-renee wrote:
> > > >> I've
> > > >> had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
> > > >> by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
> > > >> how to fix them.
> > > >
> > > >Good reason for him to be your ex-boyfriend.
> > > >
> > > Er, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it that only males who know
> > > how to fix cars are eligible for the state of boy-friend-hood? Or that
> > > males who sell cars are not eligible for elevation to that exalted state?
> >
> > Nonono. A man who would sell a crappy car to his girlfriend should be
> > shot -- he's lucky she let him get away.
>
> People who sell cars must be the only ones on the planet that are
> supposed to know if a particular car is in good shape or not.
>
> Do you blame the checker at the grocery store if you bring home a can
> of something or other and don't like the taste? Or you buy a new
> chair and get it home and it doesn't fit where you wanted to put it, I
> suppose it's the store's fault.
>
> I'll tell you something - almost anyone presentable and of normal
> intelligence can get a job selling cars (keeping it is another
> matter). They'll teach you how to show a car to a prospective buyer,
> they'll teach you how to fill out the paperwork, they'll teach you how
> to dicker with a customer, at least at the better dealerships they'll
> emphasize that lying to a customer is grounds for immediate dismissal.
> But they don't teach you auto mechanics.

I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?

> You yourself could probably get such a job, and be selling cars to
> members of the public within a week. How would you guarantee you
> don't sell someone "a crappy car"? How would you even know if you
> did?

By driving it around the block and knowing something about what repairs
cost. Can't everyone do that? Age helps, of course. I would think it
would be very difficult to tell if a nearly-new car was likely to need
repair in the near future.

--
Cheers,
Bev
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing in the universe can withstand the relentless application
of brute force and ignorance." -- Frd, via Dennis (evil)

The Real Bev
July 8th 03, 12:06 AM
lpogoda wrote:
>
> The Real Bev > wrote:
> > lpogoda wrote:
> > > The Real Bev wrote:
> > > >linda-renee wrote:
> > > >> I've
> > > >> had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last one--sold to me
> > > >> by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell cars, not
> > > >> how to fix them.
> > > >
> > > >Good reason for him to be your ex-boyfriend.
> > > >
> > > Er, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it that only males who know
> > > how to fix cars are eligible for the state of boy-friend-hood? Or that
> > > males who sell cars are not eligible for elevation to that exalted state?
> >
> > Nonono. A man who would sell a crappy car to his girlfriend should be
> > shot -- he's lucky she let him get away.
>
> People who sell cars must be the only ones on the planet that are
> supposed to know if a particular car is in good shape or not.
>
> Do you blame the checker at the grocery store if you bring home a can
> of something or other and don't like the taste? Or you buy a new
> chair and get it home and it doesn't fit where you wanted to put it, I
> suppose it's the store's fault.
>
> I'll tell you something - almost anyone presentable and of normal
> intelligence can get a job selling cars (keeping it is another
> matter). They'll teach you how to show a car to a prospective buyer,
> they'll teach you how to fill out the paperwork, they'll teach you how
> to dicker with a customer, at least at the better dealerships they'll
> emphasize that lying to a customer is grounds for immediate dismissal.
> But they don't teach you auto mechanics.

I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?

> You yourself could probably get such a job, and be selling cars to
> members of the public within a week. How would you guarantee you
> don't sell someone "a crappy car"? How would you even know if you
> did?

By driving it around the block and knowing something about what repairs
cost. Can't everyone do that? Age helps, of course. I would think it
would be very difficult to tell if a nearly-new car was likely to need
repair in the near future.

--
Cheers,
Bev
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing in the universe can withstand the relentless application
of brute force and ignorance." -- Frd, via Dennis (evil)

The Real Bev
July 8th 03, 01:10 AM
Bob Ward wrote:
>
> > wrote:
>
> >I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
> >knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
> >car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
> >position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
> >you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
> >doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?
> >
> I don't think it's all that much of a conspiracy, Bev - I've never
> known a mechanic who could make predictions of this sort with any kind
> of accuracy at all.

Let me get this straight: you think that [used] car salesmen are honest?
How about telemarketers? How about the "will work for food" people?

> So, yes, it does sound outlandish to me.

So the red fluid all over the case and the occasional grinding sound or
engine roar are signs of health? Fill 'er up, steamclean it and there it
is, some little old lady's pride and joy that she only took out to the
dragstrip on Sunday afternoons...

It's possible to see and hear and smell and feel how badly a car has been
treated or what it might need in the way of repair. It's also possible to
apply temporary cosmetic improvements. (Think sawdust in the
transmission.) If you want to buy a used car, find one that nobody thinks
is worth taking the trouble to camouflage the defects AND whose defects
are not that difficult to repair.

--
Cheers,
Bev
---------------------------------------------
"The primary purpose of any government entity
is to employ the unemployable."

The Real Bev
July 8th 03, 01:10 AM
Bob Ward wrote:
>
> > wrote:
>
> >I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
> >knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
> >car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
> >position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
> >you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
> >doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?
> >
> I don't think it's all that much of a conspiracy, Bev - I've never
> known a mechanic who could make predictions of this sort with any kind
> of accuracy at all.

Let me get this straight: you think that [used] car salesmen are honest?
How about telemarketers? How about the "will work for food" people?

> So, yes, it does sound outlandish to me.

So the red fluid all over the case and the occasional grinding sound or
engine roar are signs of health? Fill 'er up, steamclean it and there it
is, some little old lady's pride and joy that she only took out to the
dragstrip on Sunday afternoons...

It's possible to see and hear and smell and feel how badly a car has been
treated or what it might need in the way of repair. It's also possible to
apply temporary cosmetic improvements. (Think sawdust in the
transmission.) If you want to buy a used car, find one that nobody thinks
is worth taking the trouble to camouflage the defects AND whose defects
are not that difficult to repair.

--
Cheers,
Bev
---------------------------------------------
"The primary purpose of any government entity
is to employ the unemployable."

The Real Bev
July 8th 03, 03:34 AM
Bob Ward wrote:
>
> On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 16:10:13 -0700, The Real Bev
> > wrote:
>
> >Bob Ward wrote:
> >>
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
> >> >knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
> >> >car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
> >> >position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
> >> >you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
> >> >doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?
> >> >
> >> I don't think it's all that much of a conspiracy, Bev - I've never
> >> known a mechanic who could make predictions of this sort with any kind
> >> of accuracy at all.
> >
> >Let me get this straight: you think that [used] car salesmen are honest?
> >How about telemarketers? How about the "will work for food" people?
> >
> I didn't mention used car salesmen or telemarketers - I was referring
> only to your claim that a mechanic can predict within a thousand miles
> of when a car is going to fail.

He can tell the difference between a good car and a wreck. OK?

> >> So, yes, it does sound outlandish to me.
> >
> >So the red fluid all over the case and the occasional grinding sound or
> >engine roar are signs of health? Fill 'er up, steamclean it and there it
> >is, some little old lady's pride and joy that she only took out to the
> >dragstrip on Sunday afternoons...
>
> Steamcleaning is certainly a temporary way to conceal a defect, but if
> the seals are leaking, it will show up pretty quickly. If you aren't
> familiar enough with what a car should sound like, so you would accept
> grinding gears and engine roar as normal, it might not be a bad idea
> to have someone check out any car you are considering purchasing, but
> that's not what I responded to.

Linda-renee trusted her boyfriend to sell her a car. She probably thought
that he HAD checked it out. That's why I thought it was a good thing she
dumped the sneaky son-of-a-bitch.

> >It's possible to see and hear and smell and feel how badly a car has been
> >treated or what it might need in the way of repair. It's also possible to
> >apply temporary cosmetic improvements. (Think sawdust in the
> >transmission.) If you want to buy a used car, find one that nobody thinks
> >is worth taking the trouble to camouflage the defects AND whose defects
> >are not that difficult to repair.
>
> First off, sawdust in an automatic transmission is not going to solve
> or conceal any problems - you are the one who mentioned the red fluid,
> so let's stay consistent here.

Different problems. Sawdust in the transmission is a canonical used-car
salesman's trick, but I have no idea whether it's still a useful one. How
about turning back the speedometer instead?

> Hard to disagree with the last part of your advice - buy a car that
> hasn't been doctored - but finding that car isn't all that easy, is
> it?

Back when you could get a good car for $50 (a trade-in that would be
wholesaled out as soon as it was convenient) I checked out each car lot in
town. I asked "What have you got for $50?" I was shown a variety of cars
-- some wrecks, some in excellent condition, just traded in because
somebody wanted a new car. You just have to be willing to look at a lot
of cars and wait until you find the right one. I guess today's $50 would
be perhaps $1,000. Maybe not. Anyway, I bought a cute little 51 Chevy
that I sold a couple of years later to a sailor on leave for $50 because
we needed a station wagon. I think I changed one/some/all of the freeze
plugs -- steel rusts, brass doesn't.

--
Cheers, Bev
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it
everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every
human being who ever was, lived out their lives." -- Carl Sagan

The Real Bev
July 8th 03, 03:34 AM
Bob Ward wrote:
>
> On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 16:10:13 -0700, The Real Bev
> > wrote:
>
> >Bob Ward wrote:
> >>
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
> >> >knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
> >> >car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
> >> >position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
> >> >you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
> >> >doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?
> >> >
> >> I don't think it's all that much of a conspiracy, Bev - I've never
> >> known a mechanic who could make predictions of this sort with any kind
> >> of accuracy at all.
> >
> >Let me get this straight: you think that [used] car salesmen are honest?
> >How about telemarketers? How about the "will work for food" people?
> >
> I didn't mention used car salesmen or telemarketers - I was referring
> only to your claim that a mechanic can predict within a thousand miles
> of when a car is going to fail.

He can tell the difference between a good car and a wreck. OK?

> >> So, yes, it does sound outlandish to me.
> >
> >So the red fluid all over the case and the occasional grinding sound or
> >engine roar are signs of health? Fill 'er up, steamclean it and there it
> >is, some little old lady's pride and joy that she only took out to the
> >dragstrip on Sunday afternoons...
>
> Steamcleaning is certainly a temporary way to conceal a defect, but if
> the seals are leaking, it will show up pretty quickly. If you aren't
> familiar enough with what a car should sound like, so you would accept
> grinding gears and engine roar as normal, it might not be a bad idea
> to have someone check out any car you are considering purchasing, but
> that's not what I responded to.

Linda-renee trusted her boyfriend to sell her a car. She probably thought
that he HAD checked it out. That's why I thought it was a good thing she
dumped the sneaky son-of-a-bitch.

> >It's possible to see and hear and smell and feel how badly a car has been
> >treated or what it might need in the way of repair. It's also possible to
> >apply temporary cosmetic improvements. (Think sawdust in the
> >transmission.) If you want to buy a used car, find one that nobody thinks
> >is worth taking the trouble to camouflage the defects AND whose defects
> >are not that difficult to repair.
>
> First off, sawdust in an automatic transmission is not going to solve
> or conceal any problems - you are the one who mentioned the red fluid,
> so let's stay consistent here.

Different problems. Sawdust in the transmission is a canonical used-car
salesman's trick, but I have no idea whether it's still a useful one. How
about turning back the speedometer instead?

> Hard to disagree with the last part of your advice - buy a car that
> hasn't been doctored - but finding that car isn't all that easy, is
> it?

Back when you could get a good car for $50 (a trade-in that would be
wholesaled out as soon as it was convenient) I checked out each car lot in
town. I asked "What have you got for $50?" I was shown a variety of cars
-- some wrecks, some in excellent condition, just traded in because
somebody wanted a new car. You just have to be willing to look at a lot
of cars and wait until you find the right one. I guess today's $50 would
be perhaps $1,000. Maybe not. Anyway, I bought a cute little 51 Chevy
that I sold a couple of years later to a sailor on leave for $50 because
we needed a station wagon. I think I changed one/some/all of the freeze
plugs -- steel rusts, brass doesn't.

--
Cheers, Bev
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it
everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every
human being who ever was, lived out their lives." -- Carl Sagan

lpogoda
July 8th 03, 03:35 AM
The Real Bev wrote in message >...
>lpogoda wrote:
>>
>> The Real Bev > wrote:
>> > lpogoda wrote:
>> > > The Real Bev wrote:
>> > > >linda-renee wrote:
>> > > >> I've
>> > > >> had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last
one--sold to me
>> > > >> by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell
cars, not
>> > > >> how to fix them.
>> > > >
>> > > >Good reason for him to be your ex-boyfriend.
>> > > >
>> > > Er, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it that only males who
know
>> > > how to fix cars are eligible for the state of boy-friend-hood? Or
that
>> > > males who sell cars are not eligible for elevation to that exalted
state?
>> >
>> > Nonono. A man who would sell a crappy car to his girlfriend should be
>> > shot -- he's lucky she let him get away.
>>
>> People who sell cars must be the only ones on the planet that are
>> supposed to know if a particular car is in good shape or not.
>>
>> Do you blame the checker at the grocery store if you bring home a can
>> of something or other and don't like the taste? Or you buy a new
>> chair and get it home and it doesn't fit where you wanted to put it, I
>> suppose it's the store's fault.
>>
>> I'll tell you something - almost anyone presentable and of normal
>> intelligence can get a job selling cars (keeping it is another
>> matter). They'll teach you how to show a car to a prospective buyer,
>> they'll teach you how to fill out the paperwork, they'll teach you how
>> to dicker with a customer, at least at the better dealerships they'll
>> emphasize that lying to a customer is grounds for immediate dismissal.
>> But they don't teach you auto mechanics.
>
>I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
>knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
>car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
>position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
>you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
>doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?

First off, that's a needlessly sexist remark. While it's true in this area
that most people who sell cars are male, it's only true of _most_ of the
people that sell cars. The shape of one's skin is not a qualification for
selling cars, and every few years when I make the rounds of dealerships
before buying my next car I run into a female "salesman" or two.

Here's the deal. I wrote what I did because once I found myself between
jobs and had to do something, so I took a job selling cars. They took a
week explaining the stuff I talked about, how to fill out the paperwork, how
to talk to a customer and when to shut up, and then I was dealing with the
walk-in traffic just like everyone else. I don't know how it works anywhere
else, but at that dealership, no one, I mean absolutely no one, from the
owner of the place, down through the sales manager, the service manager, all
the way down to the guys who paint the big "Sale" signs on the windshields
on an itinerant basis ever so much as hinted a blessed thing to me about the
mechanical condition of a single vehicle on the lot.

A couple of times I took a car in trade and someone would come in later that
day or the next who was interested that car. They'd ask me about the
condition of the vehicle, and I'd tell them quite honestly that I didn't
know anything about it. But since I was the guy who took the car in, I knew
who the previous owner was, so I'd offer to give them the phone number or
call the previous owner and let them talk to whoever it was. That's what
the top salesman at the dealership did - he'd call the previous owner, the
guy often as not would come into the dealership, he'd introduce the two, sit
them down in an office and walk away, leaving them alone to talk privately.
15 or 20 minutes later he'd come back and say something like "Now you know
about the car, do you want to buy it?" Usually they did. And no, there
were no hidden mikes.

You can assume away. That doesn't mean it bears any similarity to reality.

>> You yourself could probably get such a job, and be selling cars to
>> members of the public within a week. How would you guarantee you
>> don't sell someone "a crappy car"? How would you even know if you
>> did?
>
>By driving it around the block and knowing something about what repairs
>cost. Can't everyone do that? Age helps, of course. I would think it
>would be very difficult to tell if a nearly-new car was likely to need
>repair in the near future.


So here I am, driving to work one day (about a 20 mile trip) and
everything's fine. That afternoon, about halfway home, I smell smoke. I
pull into a high school parking lot, and sure enough, it's coming from the
car. Well, I go inside, talk to the custodian, call my garage. They come
the next day and tow the thing in. Turns out a brake rotor (I think that's
what it was) had gone bad, needed new rotors and pads or shoes or whatever
they're called. Cost a few bucks, but my point is, driving a car around the
block might let you know if something is already broken, but doesn't tell
you anything about something that's going to break soon but hasn't broken
yet.

Then there was my sister-in-law, driving her brand new car with her husband
in the passenger seat, stopped at a traffic light. The car makes a funny
noise and gives a shake. She thinks this isn't right, pulls over to the
side of the road, shuts off the car, and they get out. A few seconds later
flames are coming out from under the hood.

Or my father-in-law, who's parked in my driveway one day, and the battery
just explodes. Car's been off for a couple of hours, no one within 50 feet.
Wotta mess. Or the day I got into his car (same one) and shut the door,
whereupon the passenger side window literally fell apart into a couple
thousand little rounded shards (nothing sharp, safety glass after all.
Car's about 5 years old at that point).

How about the customer I sold a brand new car to, big fancy vehicle with
every option available (at her very forceful insistence). A week later I'm
coming back to the dealership from a test drive with another customer and I
see her over by the service garage interest. Well, we spent a lot of time
together (relatively speaking, I mean, several hours over the course of
three days) and seemed to get along well, so I went over to say hello. I
didn't get a single word out before she started berating me - seems there
was a postage stamp sized patch where the finish wasn't quite up to snuff.
It was obvious when you noticed it, but so help me I hadn't noticed it, and
neither had she (or her husband), over the course of three days looking at
and deciding to buy that particular car. And it wasn't a _problem_, the
service manager said it would be fixed that day so you'd never know it was
there and he'd already told her that, and meanwhile here was a loaner.

If you think you can infallibly tell if a car has a problem by driving it
around the block, you're out of touch with reality. Ditto if you think all
salespeople and all sales establishments are out to screw you. Sure, some
won't tell you up front the absolute rock bottom price they'd be willing to
accept. But you wouldn't do that if you were selling your car privately
either. Well, I admittedly don't know you, maybe you would.

lpogoda
July 8th 03, 03:35 AM
The Real Bev wrote in message >...
>lpogoda wrote:
>>
>> The Real Bev > wrote:
>> > lpogoda wrote:
>> > > The Real Bev wrote:
>> > > >linda-renee wrote:
>> > > >> I've
>> > > >> had nothing but trouble with used cars, including the last
one--sold to me
>> > > >> by my then-boyfriend, the car salesman, who only knew how to sell
cars, not
>> > > >> how to fix them.
>> > > >
>> > > >Good reason for him to be your ex-boyfriend.
>> > > >
>> > > Er, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it that only males who
know
>> > > how to fix cars are eligible for the state of boy-friend-hood? Or
that
>> > > males who sell cars are not eligible for elevation to that exalted
state?
>> >
>> > Nonono. A man who would sell a crappy car to his girlfriend should be
>> > shot -- he's lucky she let him get away.
>>
>> People who sell cars must be the only ones on the planet that are
>> supposed to know if a particular car is in good shape or not.
>>
>> Do you blame the checker at the grocery store if you bring home a can
>> of something or other and don't like the taste? Or you buy a new
>> chair and get it home and it doesn't fit where you wanted to put it, I
>> suppose it's the store's fault.
>>
>> I'll tell you something - almost anyone presentable and of normal
>> intelligence can get a job selling cars (keeping it is another
>> matter). They'll teach you how to show a car to a prospective buyer,
>> they'll teach you how to fill out the paperwork, they'll teach you how
>> to dicker with a customer, at least at the better dealerships they'll
>> emphasize that lying to a customer is grounds for immediate dismissal.
>> But they don't teach you auto mechanics.
>
>I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
>knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
>car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
>position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
>you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
>doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?

First off, that's a needlessly sexist remark. While it's true in this area
that most people who sell cars are male, it's only true of _most_ of the
people that sell cars. The shape of one's skin is not a qualification for
selling cars, and every few years when I make the rounds of dealerships
before buying my next car I run into a female "salesman" or two.

Here's the deal. I wrote what I did because once I found myself between
jobs and had to do something, so I took a job selling cars. They took a
week explaining the stuff I talked about, how to fill out the paperwork, how
to talk to a customer and when to shut up, and then I was dealing with the
walk-in traffic just like everyone else. I don't know how it works anywhere
else, but at that dealership, no one, I mean absolutely no one, from the
owner of the place, down through the sales manager, the service manager, all
the way down to the guys who paint the big "Sale" signs on the windshields
on an itinerant basis ever so much as hinted a blessed thing to me about the
mechanical condition of a single vehicle on the lot.

A couple of times I took a car in trade and someone would come in later that
day or the next who was interested that car. They'd ask me about the
condition of the vehicle, and I'd tell them quite honestly that I didn't
know anything about it. But since I was the guy who took the car in, I knew
who the previous owner was, so I'd offer to give them the phone number or
call the previous owner and let them talk to whoever it was. That's what
the top salesman at the dealership did - he'd call the previous owner, the
guy often as not would come into the dealership, he'd introduce the two, sit
them down in an office and walk away, leaving them alone to talk privately.
15 or 20 minutes later he'd come back and say something like "Now you know
about the car, do you want to buy it?" Usually they did. And no, there
were no hidden mikes.

You can assume away. That doesn't mean it bears any similarity to reality.

>> You yourself could probably get such a job, and be selling cars to
>> members of the public within a week. How would you guarantee you
>> don't sell someone "a crappy car"? How would you even know if you
>> did?
>
>By driving it around the block and knowing something about what repairs
>cost. Can't everyone do that? Age helps, of course. I would think it
>would be very difficult to tell if a nearly-new car was likely to need
>repair in the near future.


So here I am, driving to work one day (about a 20 mile trip) and
everything's fine. That afternoon, about halfway home, I smell smoke. I
pull into a high school parking lot, and sure enough, it's coming from the
car. Well, I go inside, talk to the custodian, call my garage. They come
the next day and tow the thing in. Turns out a brake rotor (I think that's
what it was) had gone bad, needed new rotors and pads or shoes or whatever
they're called. Cost a few bucks, but my point is, driving a car around the
block might let you know if something is already broken, but doesn't tell
you anything about something that's going to break soon but hasn't broken
yet.

Then there was my sister-in-law, driving her brand new car with her husband
in the passenger seat, stopped at a traffic light. The car makes a funny
noise and gives a shake. She thinks this isn't right, pulls over to the
side of the road, shuts off the car, and they get out. A few seconds later
flames are coming out from under the hood.

Or my father-in-law, who's parked in my driveway one day, and the battery
just explodes. Car's been off for a couple of hours, no one within 50 feet.
Wotta mess. Or the day I got into his car (same one) and shut the door,
whereupon the passenger side window literally fell apart into a couple
thousand little rounded shards (nothing sharp, safety glass after all.
Car's about 5 years old at that point).

How about the customer I sold a brand new car to, big fancy vehicle with
every option available (at her very forceful insistence). A week later I'm
coming back to the dealership from a test drive with another customer and I
see her over by the service garage interest. Well, we spent a lot of time
together (relatively speaking, I mean, several hours over the course of
three days) and seemed to get along well, so I went over to say hello. I
didn't get a single word out before she started berating me - seems there
was a postage stamp sized patch where the finish wasn't quite up to snuff.
It was obvious when you noticed it, but so help me I hadn't noticed it, and
neither had she (or her husband), over the course of three days looking at
and deciding to buy that particular car. And it wasn't a _problem_, the
service manager said it would be fixed that day so you'd never know it was
there and he'd already told her that, and meanwhile here was a loaner.

If you think you can infallibly tell if a car has a problem by driving it
around the block, you're out of touch with reality. Ditto if you think all
salespeople and all sales establishments are out to screw you. Sure, some
won't tell you up front the absolute rock bottom price they'd be willing to
accept. But you wouldn't do that if you were selling your car privately
either. Well, I admittedly don't know you, maybe you would.

lpogoda
July 8th 03, 03:47 AM
Bob Ward wrote in message >...
>On 7 Jul 2003 10:25:46 -0700, (lpogoda) wrote:
>
>>root > wrote in message
>...
>>> lpogoda > wrote:
>>> > The combined minimum payment for the repairs
>>> > was more than the payment on a new car would be.
>>> >
>>> > Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm
going to
>>> > Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the least
>>> > inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills, though.)
>>> >
>>>
>>> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>>> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>>> more economical to repair than buy new.
>>
>>I'm reporting actual, literal fact, events that happened to me
>>personally. You're calling me a liar, and I don't appreciate it.
>>
>>Furthermore, you're wrong on all counts.
>>a. it's not a premise, it's actual events
>>b. I'm not "offering" anything, I'm reporting
>>c. I'm telling the literal and absolute truth about those events
>>d. it isn't "always" cheaper to repair, as my personal experience
>>demonstrates
>>e. you're not "thinking", you're parroting a knee-jerk, unreasoned
>>response (and that's an insult to parrots, which at least occasionally
>>appear to comprehend what they're saying and responding to)
>>
>>Your reading comprehension stinks too.
>
>
>No, all your little story proves is, to quote you:
>
>"Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm
>going to Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the
>least inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills,
>though.)"
>
>Thos says NOTHING about which is more frugal or economical - just, as
>you pointed out, "less inconvenient".
>
>Last time I checked, the name of the group is
>misc.consumers.frugal-living, not misc.consumers.most-convenient.
>

Your pardon, I thought that was clear. Allow me to restate.

The minimum monthly payment on the accumulated repair bills was higher than
the monthly payment for a brand new car acquired with a three year loan and
no money down, just the trade. The repair bills still had to be paid off,
of course, and at the minimum monthly amount, it would have taken longer
than the three years it took to pay off the new car. Not to mention that
the steady stream of annoying "minor" repairs showed no sign of letting up.
And incidentally, because the new car had airbags and some kind of
anti-theft something or other, the insurance went _down_ a hundred or so
bucks a year.

I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it was
cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.

lpogoda
July 8th 03, 03:47 AM
Bob Ward wrote in message >...
>On 7 Jul 2003 10:25:46 -0700, (lpogoda) wrote:
>
>>root > wrote in message
>...
>>> lpogoda > wrote:
>>> > The combined minimum payment for the repairs
>>> > was more than the payment on a new car would be.
>>> >
>>> > Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm
going to
>>> > Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the least
>>> > inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills, though.)
>>> >
>>>
>>> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>>> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>>> more economical to repair than buy new.
>>
>>I'm reporting actual, literal fact, events that happened to me
>>personally. You're calling me a liar, and I don't appreciate it.
>>
>>Furthermore, you're wrong on all counts.
>>a. it's not a premise, it's actual events
>>b. I'm not "offering" anything, I'm reporting
>>c. I'm telling the literal and absolute truth about those events
>>d. it isn't "always" cheaper to repair, as my personal experience
>>demonstrates
>>e. you're not "thinking", you're parroting a knee-jerk, unreasoned
>>response (and that's an insult to parrots, which at least occasionally
>>appear to comprehend what they're saying and responding to)
>>
>>Your reading comprehension stinks too.
>
>
>No, all your little story proves is, to quote you:
>
>"Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm
>going to Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the
>least inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills,
>though.)"
>
>Thos says NOTHING about which is more frugal or economical - just, as
>you pointed out, "less inconvenient".
>
>Last time I checked, the name of the group is
>misc.consumers.frugal-living, not misc.consumers.most-convenient.
>

Your pardon, I thought that was clear. Allow me to restate.

The minimum monthly payment on the accumulated repair bills was higher than
the monthly payment for a brand new car acquired with a three year loan and
no money down, just the trade. The repair bills still had to be paid off,
of course, and at the minimum monthly amount, it would have taken longer
than the three years it took to pay off the new car. Not to mention that
the steady stream of annoying "minor" repairs showed no sign of letting up.
And incidentally, because the new car had airbags and some kind of
anti-theft something or other, the insurance went _down_ a hundred or so
bucks a year.

I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it was
cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.

K. Reece
July 8th 03, 03:52 AM
"Bob Ward" > wrote in message
...
> First off, sawdust in an automatic transmission is not going to solve
> or conceal any problems - you are the one who mentioned the red fluid,
> so let's stay consistent here.
>

Actually you're wrong about that statement. Sawdust in an automatic
transmission can hide a problem long enough to get the car sold and off the
lot.

I actually had a car that the transmission was about to go out of. It was
slipping so badly that it would barely move. I added a hand full of dirt,
because I didn't have any sawdust handy, and drove that car for another
couple of days until we could get the transmission changed. If you do this
you must make sure you get all of the "filler"
out of the transmission cooler lines or it'll ruin the next transmission
you put in. But a hand full of dirt is way cheaper than a tow truck.

Kathy

K. Reece
July 8th 03, 03:52 AM
"Bob Ward" > wrote in message
...
> First off, sawdust in an automatic transmission is not going to solve
> or conceal any problems - you are the one who mentioned the red fluid,
> so let's stay consistent here.
>

Actually you're wrong about that statement. Sawdust in an automatic
transmission can hide a problem long enough to get the car sold and off the
lot.

I actually had a car that the transmission was about to go out of. It was
slipping so badly that it would barely move. I added a hand full of dirt,
because I didn't have any sawdust handy, and drove that car for another
couple of days until we could get the transmission changed. If you do this
you must make sure you get all of the "filler"
out of the transmission cooler lines or it'll ruin the next transmission
you put in. But a hand full of dirt is way cheaper than a tow truck.

Kathy

Bob Ward
July 8th 03, 04:17 AM
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:47:01 -0400, "lpogoda"
> wrote:

>
>The minimum monthly payment on the accumulated repair bills was higher than
>the monthly payment for a brand new car acquired with a three year loan and
>no money down, just the trade. The repair bills still had to be paid off,
>of course, and at the minimum monthly amount, it would have taken longer
>than the three years it took to pay off the new car. Not to mention that
>the steady stream of annoying "minor" repairs showed no sign of letting up.
>And incidentally, because the new car had airbags and some kind of
>anti-theft something or other, the insurance went _down_ a hundred or so
>bucks a year.
>
>I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it was
>cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
>economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.
>

If what you want is a new car, that might be true - but if what you
want is reliable transportation, at the least cost of ownership, I
don't think that buying a new car will ever be the solution.

Bob Ward
July 8th 03, 04:17 AM
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:47:01 -0400, "lpogoda"
> wrote:

>
>The minimum monthly payment on the accumulated repair bills was higher than
>the monthly payment for a brand new car acquired with a three year loan and
>no money down, just the trade. The repair bills still had to be paid off,
>of course, and at the minimum monthly amount, it would have taken longer
>than the three years it took to pay off the new car. Not to mention that
>the steady stream of annoying "minor" repairs showed no sign of letting up.
>And incidentally, because the new car had airbags and some kind of
>anti-theft something or other, the insurance went _down_ a hundred or so
>bucks a year.
>
>I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it was
>cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
>economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.
>

If what you want is a new car, that might be true - but if what you
want is reliable transportation, at the least cost of ownership, I
don't think that buying a new car will ever be the solution.

The Real Bev
July 8th 03, 04:24 AM
lpogoda wrote:
>
> The Real Bev wrote:

> >I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
> >knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
> >car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
> >position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
> >you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
> >doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?
>
> First off, that's a needlessly sexist remark.

WHAT sexist remark? Oh, I see, "salesman." OK, "salesperson." When I
last dealt with a used car salesperson, they were ALL men. Sue me.

<Story about used-car selling experience snipped.>

> So here I am, driving to work one day (about a 20 mile trip) and
> everything's fine. That afternoon, about halfway home, I smell smoke. I
> pull into a high school parking lot, and sure enough, it's coming from the
> car. Well, I go inside, talk to the custodian, call my garage. They come
> the next day and tow the thing in. Turns out a brake rotor (I think that's
> what it was) had gone bad, needed new rotors and pads or shoes or whatever
> they're called. Cost a few bucks, but my point is, driving a car around the
> block might let you know if something is already broken, but doesn't tell
> you anything about something that's going to break soon but hasn't broken
> yet.

No, but I can't figure out how rotors would suddenly go bad AND emit
smoke. Same with pads, unless you were riding the brakes on a long
downhill. Sometimes you can tell when something needs a fix (CV joints
will give thousands of miles of warning) and sometimes you get a nasty
surprise. The idea is to find as many problems as possible before you
buy.

> If you think you can infallibly tell if a car has a problem by driving it
> around the block, you're out of touch with reality.

No, you just do the best you can.

> Ditto if you think all
> salespeople and all sales establishments are out to screw you.

OK, how about 80%? I've sold stuff too, and I didn't lie about what I was
selling. I even talked customers out of buying expensive crap in favor of
cheaper good stuff.

> Sure, some
> won't tell you up front the absolute rock bottom price they'd be willing to
> accept. But you wouldn't do that if you were selling your car privately
> either. Well, I admittedly don't know you, maybe you would.

I did that. I told the fine Cherman mechanic exactly what was wrong with
my 1950 Olds and the price I wanted ($25 or $50, I can't remember). He
gave me the money and drove it away. A week later the guy at the corner
store told me he saw my car at the local wrecking yard. Hey, I TOLD him
all the things that were wrong with it. I've also given motorcycles
away. Unlike the professionals, I'm not trying to make money by selling
stuff.

Repeat: If Linda-Renee's boyfriend didn't bother to make sure that he was
selling her a good car, he's at the very least a thoughtless **** and is
lucky she didn't kill him. You just don't do stuff like that to friends.

--
Cheers,
Bev
=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=
"Sure, everyone's in favor of saving Hitler's brain, but when
you put it into the body of a great white shark, suddenly
you're a madman." --Futurama

The Real Bev
July 8th 03, 04:24 AM
lpogoda wrote:
>
> The Real Bev wrote:

> >I will guarantee you that there is SOMEBODY on every used car lot who
> >knows about cars. I will assume that that person will communicate the
> >car's actual condition to the salesmen, who will then be in a better
> >position to screw the customer out of every extra nickel. "Take whatever
> >you can get, the tranny on this one is gonna break in a thousand miles"
> >doesn't really sound all that outlandish, does it?
>
> First off, that's a needlessly sexist remark.

WHAT sexist remark? Oh, I see, "salesman." OK, "salesperson." When I
last dealt with a used car salesperson, they were ALL men. Sue me.

<Story about used-car selling experience snipped.>

> So here I am, driving to work one day (about a 20 mile trip) and
> everything's fine. That afternoon, about halfway home, I smell smoke. I
> pull into a high school parking lot, and sure enough, it's coming from the
> car. Well, I go inside, talk to the custodian, call my garage. They come
> the next day and tow the thing in. Turns out a brake rotor (I think that's
> what it was) had gone bad, needed new rotors and pads or shoes or whatever
> they're called. Cost a few bucks, but my point is, driving a car around the
> block might let you know if something is already broken, but doesn't tell
> you anything about something that's going to break soon but hasn't broken
> yet.

No, but I can't figure out how rotors would suddenly go bad AND emit
smoke. Same with pads, unless you were riding the brakes on a long
downhill. Sometimes you can tell when something needs a fix (CV joints
will give thousands of miles of warning) and sometimes you get a nasty
surprise. The idea is to find as many problems as possible before you
buy.

> If you think you can infallibly tell if a car has a problem by driving it
> around the block, you're out of touch with reality.

No, you just do the best you can.

> Ditto if you think all
> salespeople and all sales establishments are out to screw you.

OK, how about 80%? I've sold stuff too, and I didn't lie about what I was
selling. I even talked customers out of buying expensive crap in favor of
cheaper good stuff.

> Sure, some
> won't tell you up front the absolute rock bottom price they'd be willing to
> accept. But you wouldn't do that if you were selling your car privately
> either. Well, I admittedly don't know you, maybe you would.

I did that. I told the fine Cherman mechanic exactly what was wrong with
my 1950 Olds and the price I wanted ($25 or $50, I can't remember). He
gave me the money and drove it away. A week later the guy at the corner
store told me he saw my car at the local wrecking yard. Hey, I TOLD him
all the things that were wrong with it. I've also given motorcycles
away. Unlike the professionals, I'm not trying to make money by selling
stuff.

Repeat: If Linda-Renee's boyfriend didn't bother to make sure that he was
selling her a good car, he's at the very least a thoughtless **** and is
lucky she didn't kill him. You just don't do stuff like that to friends.

--
Cheers,
Bev
=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=
"Sure, everyone's in favor of saving Hitler's brain, but when
you put it into the body of a great white shark, suddenly
you're a madman." --Futurama

K. Reece
July 8th 03, 06:42 AM
"Bob Ward" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:52:10 -0600, "K. Reece" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bob Ward" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> First off, sawdust in an automatic transmission is not going to solve
> >> or conceal any problems - you are the one who mentioned the red fluid,
> >> so let's stay consistent here.
> >>
> >
> >Actually you're wrong about that statement. Sawdust in an automatic
> >transmission can hide a problem long enough to get the car sold and off
the
> >lot.
> >
> >I actually had a car that the transmission was about to go out of. It
was
> >slipping so badly that it would barely move. I added a hand full of
dirt,
> >because I didn't have any sawdust handy, and drove that car for another
> >couple of days until we could get the transmission changed. If you do
this
> >you must make sure you get all of the "filler"
> > out of the transmission cooler lines or it'll ruin the next transmission
> >you put in. But a hand full of dirt is way cheaper than a tow truck.
> >
> >Kathy
> >
>
>
>
> MMMMM... if you say so, Kathy... whatever you say...
>

Hey, I drove that car for 6 months with no reverse!! You just have to be
careful where you park! LOL I did only drive it two days with the dirt in
the transmission though and I didn't drive it far. When I finally parked
that car it had no transmission, no brakes, no ignition switch, a cracked
frame, no battery, no battery cable ends and the driver's side door only
opened from the outside, but it started right up. When I sold it I got 200$
for it because of the motor.

Kathy

K. Reece
July 8th 03, 06:42 AM
"Bob Ward" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:52:10 -0600, "K. Reece" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bob Ward" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> First off, sawdust in an automatic transmission is not going to solve
> >> or conceal any problems - you are the one who mentioned the red fluid,
> >> so let's stay consistent here.
> >>
> >
> >Actually you're wrong about that statement. Sawdust in an automatic
> >transmission can hide a problem long enough to get the car sold and off
the
> >lot.
> >
> >I actually had a car that the transmission was about to go out of. It
was
> >slipping so badly that it would barely move. I added a hand full of
dirt,
> >because I didn't have any sawdust handy, and drove that car for another
> >couple of days until we could get the transmission changed. If you do
this
> >you must make sure you get all of the "filler"
> > out of the transmission cooler lines or it'll ruin the next transmission
> >you put in. But a hand full of dirt is way cheaper than a tow truck.
> >
> >Kathy
> >
>
>
>
> MMMMM... if you say so, Kathy... whatever you say...
>

Hey, I drove that car for 6 months with no reverse!! You just have to be
careful where you park! LOL I did only drive it two days with the dirt in
the transmission though and I didn't drive it far. When I finally parked
that car it had no transmission, no brakes, no ignition switch, a cracked
frame, no battery, no battery cable ends and the driver's side door only
opened from the outside, but it started right up. When I sold it I got 200$
for it because of the motor.

Kathy

root
July 8th 03, 10:03 AM
linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
> "root" > wrote in message
>
>> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>> more economical to repair than buy new.
>
> Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither Lou
> nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.
>
>

We aren't talking about justifying. We are talking about wise decisions
and frugal-living.

If you *want* to buy a new car then fine: you are helping to keep the
economy running.

If you want to reflect about your purchase, then consider that in the
first year the depreciation on your new car would pay for a lot of
repairs on the old car. There are lots of considerations, YMMV.

root
July 8th 03, 10:03 AM
linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
> "root" > wrote in message
>
>> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>> more economical to repair than buy new.
>
> Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither Lou
> nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.
>
>

We aren't talking about justifying. We are talking about wise decisions
and frugal-living.

If you *want* to buy a new car then fine: you are helping to keep the
economy running.

If you want to reflect about your purchase, then consider that in the
first year the depreciation on your new car would pay for a lot of
repairs on the old car. There are lots of considerations, YMMV.

root
July 8th 03, 10:30 AM
lpogoda > wrote:
> root > wrote in message >...
>> lpogoda > wrote:
>> > The combined minimum payment for the repairs
>> > was more than the payment on a new car would be.
>> >
>> > Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm going to
>> > Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the least
>> > inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills, though.)
>> >
>>
>> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>> more economical to repair than buy new.
>
> I'm reporting actual, literal fact, events that happened to me
> personally. You're calling me a liar, and I don't appreciate it.
>
> Furthermore, you're wrong on all counts.
> a. it's not a premise, it's actual events
> b. I'm not "offering" anything, I'm reporting
> c. I'm telling the literal and absolute truth about those events
> d. it isn't "always" cheaper to repair, as my personal experience
> demonstrates
> e. you're not "thinking", you're parroting a knee-jerk, unreasoned
> response (and that's an insult to parrots, which at least occasionally
> appear to comprehend what they're saying and responding to)
>
> Your reading comprehension stinks too.

(a) and (b) involve a difference in our word usage.

(c) I didn't question the veracity or your statements.

(d) this is the crux of my assertion.

(e) unecessary.

Back to (d):

In the case of a collision a repair may not be economical.

As far as running functions of the car [ engine, transmission,
steering, brakes ] you can do a lot of repair for the
first year depreciation cost of a new car.

What you see as a personal attack was not. This is the proper
forum for a discussion of the general question: "repair or replace"?

root
July 8th 03, 10:30 AM
lpogoda > wrote:
> root > wrote in message >...
>> lpogoda > wrote:
>> > The combined minimum payment for the repairs
>> > was more than the payment on a new car would be.
>> >
>> > Went out and bought a brand spanking new car that weekend. If I'm going to
>> > Peter or I'm going to pay Paul, I'll chose the one with the least
>> > inconvenience. (Still had to pay off those repair bills, though.)
>> >
>>
>> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>> more economical to repair than buy new.
>
> I'm reporting actual, literal fact, events that happened to me
> personally. You're calling me a liar, and I don't appreciate it.
>
> Furthermore, you're wrong on all counts.
> a. it's not a premise, it's actual events
> b. I'm not "offering" anything, I'm reporting
> c. I'm telling the literal and absolute truth about those events
> d. it isn't "always" cheaper to repair, as my personal experience
> demonstrates
> e. you're not "thinking", you're parroting a knee-jerk, unreasoned
> response (and that's an insult to parrots, which at least occasionally
> appear to comprehend what they're saying and responding to)
>
> Your reading comprehension stinks too.

(a) and (b) involve a difference in our word usage.

(c) I didn't question the veracity or your statements.

(d) this is the crux of my assertion.

(e) unecessary.

Back to (d):

In the case of a collision a repair may not be economical.

As far as running functions of the car [ engine, transmission,
steering, brakes ] you can do a lot of repair for the
first year depreciation cost of a new car.

What you see as a personal attack was not. This is the proper
forum for a discussion of the general question: "repair or replace"?

root
July 8th 03, 10:33 AM
lpogoda > wrote:
>
> The minimum monthly payment on the accumulated repair bills was higher than
> the monthly payment for a brand new car acquired with a three year loan and
> no money down, just the trade. The repair bills still had to be paid off,
> of course, and at the minimum monthly amount, it would have taken longer
> than the three years it took to pay off the new car. Not to mention that
> the steady stream of annoying "minor" repairs showed no sign of letting up.
> And incidentally, because the new car had airbags and some kind of
> anti-theft something or other, the insurance went _down_ a hundred or so
> bucks a year.
>
> I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it was
> cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
> economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.
>
>

Did you not also say that you still were obligated for the repair bills?

root
July 8th 03, 10:33 AM
lpogoda > wrote:
>
> The minimum monthly payment on the accumulated repair bills was higher than
> the monthly payment for a brand new car acquired with a three year loan and
> no money down, just the trade. The repair bills still had to be paid off,
> of course, and at the minimum monthly amount, it would have taken longer
> than the three years it took to pay off the new car. Not to mention that
> the steady stream of annoying "minor" repairs showed no sign of letting up.
> And incidentally, because the new car had airbags and some kind of
> anti-theft something or other, the insurance went _down_ a hundred or so
> bucks a year.
>
> I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it was
> cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
> economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.
>
>

Did you not also say that you still were obligated for the repair bills?

linda-renee
July 8th 03, 12:38 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> lpogoda > wrote:

> > I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it
was
> > cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
> > economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.

> Did you not also say that you still were obligated for the repair bills?

I'm sure he had to pay for whatever debts he'd already incurred, but came to
the realization that holding onto the old POS would mean throwing good money
after bad, and decided to cut his losses. (At least that was the decision I
made with my crappy vehicle.) In the next round, you don't buy the clunker
and you don't incur the repair bills. Next month, my car is paid off, and I
won't have a car payment, but I'll have a low mileage vehicle whose history
I know completely. Worth the peace of mind to me, unlike the days when I
was literally afraid to start the engine for fear of what disaster might
befall us on the road.

linda-renee
July 8th 03, 12:38 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> lpogoda > wrote:

> > I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it
was
> > cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
> > economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.

> Did you not also say that you still were obligated for the repair bills?

I'm sure he had to pay for whatever debts he'd already incurred, but came to
the realization that holding onto the old POS would mean throwing good money
after bad, and decided to cut his losses. (At least that was the decision I
made with my crappy vehicle.) In the next round, you don't buy the clunker
and you don't incur the repair bills. Next month, my car is paid off, and I
won't have a car payment, but I'll have a low mileage vehicle whose history
I know completely. Worth the peace of mind to me, unlike the days when I
was literally afraid to start the engine for fear of what disaster might
befall us on the road.

linda-renee
July 8th 03, 12:44 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:

> > "root" > wrote in message

> >> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
> >> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
> >> more economical to repair than buy new.

> > Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither
Lou
> > nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.

> We aren't talking about justifying. We are talking about wise decisions
> and frugal-living.

Not talking about justifying would, of course, explain why you said, "you
cannot justify buying a new car."

> If you *want* to buy a new car then fine: you are helping to keep the
> economy running.

Better than keeping the auto mechanic business booming, eh?

> If you want to reflect about your purchase, then consider that in the
> first year the depreciation on your new car would pay for a lot of
> repairs on the old car.

Depreciation is irrelevant if you aren't selling the flipping thing. My car
gets paid off next month and I have no plans to sell it. Therefore its
resale value means nothing; having a working vehicle and not having repair
bills for the last four years means everything.

>There are lots of considerations, YMMV.

About time you realized YMMV--before you spout off crap about how others
can't justify their personal decision to purchase their personal
transportation.

linda-renee
July 8th 03, 12:44 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:

> > "root" > wrote in message

> >> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
> >> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
> >> more economical to repair than buy new.

> > Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither
Lou
> > nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.

> We aren't talking about justifying. We are talking about wise decisions
> and frugal-living.

Not talking about justifying would, of course, explain why you said, "you
cannot justify buying a new car."

> If you *want* to buy a new car then fine: you are helping to keep the
> economy running.

Better than keeping the auto mechanic business booming, eh?

> If you want to reflect about your purchase, then consider that in the
> first year the depreciation on your new car would pay for a lot of
> repairs on the old car.

Depreciation is irrelevant if you aren't selling the flipping thing. My car
gets paid off next month and I have no plans to sell it. Therefore its
resale value means nothing; having a working vehicle and not having repair
bills for the last four years means everything.

>There are lots of considerations, YMMV.

About time you realized YMMV--before you spout off crap about how others
can't justify their personal decision to purchase their personal
transportation.

root
July 8th 03, 07:07 PM
linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
> "root" > wrote in message
>
>> linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
>
>> > "root" > wrote in message
>
>> >> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>> >> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>> >> more economical to repair than buy new.
>
>> > Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither
> Lou
>> > nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.
>
>> We aren't talking about justifying. We are talking about wise decisions
>> and frugal-living.
>
> Not talking about justifying would, of course, explain why you said, "you
> cannot justify buying a new car."


Perhaps I should have said "One cannot justify". In any case the use
of justify here is in the sense of economical decision. You cannot
possible imagine that I was requiring you to prove to me that you
be allowed to buy a new car.

>
> Depreciation is irrelevant if you aren't selling the flipping thing. My car
> gets paid off next month and I have no plans to sell it. Therefore its
> resale value means nothing; having a working vehicle and not having repair
> bills for the last four years means everything.

Depreciation does mean something whether or not *you* can see it. You have
explained everything in your last sentence, and economy was not the basis
of your decision.
>

root
July 8th 03, 07:07 PM
linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
> "root" > wrote in message
>
>> linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
>
>> > "root" > wrote in message
>
>> >> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>> >> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>> >> more economical to repair than buy new.
>
>> > Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither
> Lou
>> > nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.
>
>> We aren't talking about justifying. We are talking about wise decisions
>> and frugal-living.
>
> Not talking about justifying would, of course, explain why you said, "you
> cannot justify buying a new car."


Perhaps I should have said "One cannot justify". In any case the use
of justify here is in the sense of economical decision. You cannot
possible imagine that I was requiring you to prove to me that you
be allowed to buy a new car.

>
> Depreciation is irrelevant if you aren't selling the flipping thing. My car
> gets paid off next month and I have no plans to sell it. Therefore its
> resale value means nothing; having a working vehicle and not having repair
> bills for the last four years means everything.

Depreciation does mean something whether or not *you* can see it. You have
explained everything in your last sentence, and economy was not the basis
of your decision.
>

linda-renee
July 8th 03, 10:59 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:

> > Depreciation is irrelevant if you aren't selling the flipping thing. My
car
> > gets paid off next month and I have no plans to sell it. Therefore its
> > resale value means nothing; having a working vehicle and not having
repair
> > bills for the last four years means everything.

> Depreciation does mean something whether or not *you* can see it.

To whom? Non-business-related depreciation--particularly as you were all
worked up about the *first year* depreciation--has no significance in this
context. If I were someone who trades in for a new car every three years,
depreciation would matter. I'm not. It doesn't.

>You have
> explained everything in your last sentence, and economy was not the basis
> of your decision.

I have already explained the basis for my decision, which is more than you
had a right or a need to know. Reading for comprehension is a wonderful
thing--you might try it some time.

linda-renee
July 8th 03, 10:59 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:

> > Depreciation is irrelevant if you aren't selling the flipping thing. My
car
> > gets paid off next month and I have no plans to sell it. Therefore its
> > resale value means nothing; having a working vehicle and not having
repair
> > bills for the last four years means everything.

> Depreciation does mean something whether or not *you* can see it.

To whom? Non-business-related depreciation--particularly as you were all
worked up about the *first year* depreciation--has no significance in this
context. If I were someone who trades in for a new car every three years,
depreciation would matter. I'm not. It doesn't.

>You have
> explained everything in your last sentence, and economy was not the basis
> of your decision.

I have already explained the basis for my decision, which is more than you
had a right or a need to know. Reading for comprehension is a wonderful
thing--you might try it some time.

lpogoda
July 9th 03, 02:35 AM
Bob Ward wrote in message >...
>>
>
>If what you want is a new car, that might be true - but if what you
>want is reliable transportation, at the least cost of ownership, I
>don't think that buying a new car will ever be the solution.
>
Didn't say, or didn't mean to say, that a new car is the least cost means of
securing reliable transportation. Just that sometimes, almost anything,
including a new car, is more economical than trying to keep a trouble-prone
car in repair.

lpogoda
July 9th 03, 02:35 AM
Bob Ward wrote in message >...
>>
>
>If what you want is a new car, that might be true - but if what you
>want is reliable transportation, at the least cost of ownership, I
>don't think that buying a new car will ever be the solution.
>
Didn't say, or didn't mean to say, that a new car is the least cost means of
securing reliable transportation. Just that sometimes, almost anything,
including a new car, is more economical than trying to keep a trouble-prone
car in repair.

lpogoda
July 9th 03, 02:40 AM
root wrote in message ...

>Did you not also say that you still were obligated for the repair bills?

Yep. For a couple of years, my wife and I had been putting the repairs on
the card when one of us went to pick up the car and wasn't carrying enough
cash. Until that night paying the bills, neither of us had stepped back and
looked at what that car was costing us. But we had charged the repairs, and
so had to pay them off.

The thing was, the need for repairs showed no sign of leveling off. It was
a constant, steady stream. You'd think, there are only so many thousand
parts that make up a car, sooner or later all of them would be replaced and
that would put an end to it. But to all appearances, we weren't anywhere
close. Getting rid of that car stopped that.

lpogoda
July 9th 03, 02:40 AM
root wrote in message ...

>Did you not also say that you still were obligated for the repair bills?

Yep. For a couple of years, my wife and I had been putting the repairs on
the card when one of us went to pick up the car and wasn't carrying enough
cash. Until that night paying the bills, neither of us had stepped back and
looked at what that car was costing us. But we had charged the repairs, and
so had to pay them off.

The thing was, the need for repairs showed no sign of leveling off. It was
a constant, steady stream. You'd think, there are only so many thousand
parts that make up a car, sooner or later all of them would be replaced and
that would put an end to it. But to all appearances, we weren't anywhere
close. Getting rid of that car stopped that.

lpogoda
July 9th 03, 02:53 AM
root wrote in message ...
>linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
>> "root" > wrote in message
>>
>>> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>>> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>>> more economical to repair than buy new.
>>
>> Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither
Lou
>> nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.
>>
>>
>
>We aren't talking about justifying. We are talking about wise decisions
>and frugal-living.
>
>If you *want* to buy a new car then fine: you are helping to keep the
>economy running.
>
>If you want to reflect about your purchase, then consider that in the
>first year the depreciation on your new car would pay for a lot of
>repairs on the old car. There are lots of considerations, YMMV.
>
Oh it would pay for a lot of repairs, sure. What it wouldn't do was get you
to work on time. It wouldn't get out of bed at 11 PM and go pick up your
spouse thirty miles away when the car failed on the way home from night
school. It wouldn't get the water out of the trunk every time it rained.
If it's a choice between paying for depreciation and paying repair bills
plus major inconvenience plus threatening your job, which makes more sense?

I suppose I could have bought another used car, and maybe hit it lucky. I'm
not saying a new car is the cheapest way to go. Just that in my case, it
was cheaper than keeping the old car in a very direct way - the monthly
payment on the new car was less than the monthly repair bill on the old. It
made the new car look like a bargain. Compared to the old car, it was.

lpogoda
July 9th 03, 02:53 AM
root wrote in message ...
>linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
>> "root" > wrote in message
>>
>>> We should start a new thread on this. I think you cannot justify buying
>>> a new car on the premise that you offer. In fact, I think it is always
>>> more economical to repair than buy new.
>>
>> Well, bully for you. I don't agree, and I'll never agree, and neither
Lou
>> nor I nor anyone else must "justify" buying decisions to you.
>>
>>
>
>We aren't talking about justifying. We are talking about wise decisions
>and frugal-living.
>
>If you *want* to buy a new car then fine: you are helping to keep the
>economy running.
>
>If you want to reflect about your purchase, then consider that in the
>first year the depreciation on your new car would pay for a lot of
>repairs on the old car. There are lots of considerations, YMMV.
>
Oh it would pay for a lot of repairs, sure. What it wouldn't do was get you
to work on time. It wouldn't get out of bed at 11 PM and go pick up your
spouse thirty miles away when the car failed on the way home from night
school. It wouldn't get the water out of the trunk every time it rained.
If it's a choice between paying for depreciation and paying repair bills
plus major inconvenience plus threatening your job, which makes more sense?

I suppose I could have bought another used car, and maybe hit it lucky. I'm
not saying a new car is the cheapest way to go. Just that in my case, it
was cheaper than keeping the old car in a very direct way - the monthly
payment on the new car was less than the monthly repair bill on the old. It
made the new car look like a bargain. Compared to the old car, it was.

Bob Ward
July 9th 03, 05:58 AM
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 09:50:15 GMT, "SoCalMike"
> wrote:

>
>
>>
>> I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it
>was
>> cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
>> economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.
>
>for the most part, it is. unless the old car is a total heap of rust belt
>crap. here in southern cali, you can get a used jap engine thrown in your
>mid-80s honda accord for about a grand, and after that, itll do another
>couple hundred thousand miles.
>

And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?


>with a modest car payment being about $300/mo, youd be hard pressed to find
>a car thatll require that kind of work on a regular basis. new trans? bout 3
>car payments. new engine? about 4. thats 7 car payments, with 53 left to go.
>halfway decent paint job? 2 car payments.
>

Bob Ward
July 9th 03, 05:58 AM
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 09:50:15 GMT, "SoCalMike"
> wrote:

>
>
>>
>> I'm _not_ saying that a new car was the cheapest way to go, just that it
>was
>> cheaper than keeping the old car in repair - that it is not always more
>> economical to repair the old instead of buying the new.
>
>for the most part, it is. unless the old car is a total heap of rust belt
>crap. here in southern cali, you can get a used jap engine thrown in your
>mid-80s honda accord for about a grand, and after that, itll do another
>couple hundred thousand miles.
>

And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?


>with a modest car payment being about $300/mo, youd be hard pressed to find
>a car thatll require that kind of work on a regular basis. new trans? bout 3
>car payments. new engine? about 4. thats 7 car payments, with 53 left to go.
>halfway decent paint job? 2 car payments.
>

root
July 9th 03, 10:21 AM
linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
>> Depreciation does mean something whether or not *you* can see it.
>
> To whom? Non-business-related depreciation--particularly as you were all
> worked up about the *first year* depreciation--has no significance in this
> context. If I were someone who trades in for a new car every three years,
> depreciation would matter. I'm not. It doesn't.
>

The best way to look at this is to consider the cost of a new car as:
intrinsic new car value + "new car" premium.

After the first few moments the new car premium is lost and most of
the depreciation in value over the first year is that premium.

When you buy a new car you pay that premium which is of value only to you.

>
> I have already explained the basis for my decision, which is more than you
> had a right or a need to know. Reading for comprehension is a wonderful
> thing--you might try it some time.
>
>

What puzzles me is my original post was in response to someone else. You
then jumped in as if I were attacking you. What I was suggesting was a
new thread along the lines of "Repair or Replace".

I don't car if you bought a new car, spend your money however you want.
>
>

root
July 9th 03, 10:21 AM
linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
>> Depreciation does mean something whether or not *you* can see it.
>
> To whom? Non-business-related depreciation--particularly as you were all
> worked up about the *first year* depreciation--has no significance in this
> context. If I were someone who trades in for a new car every three years,
> depreciation would matter. I'm not. It doesn't.
>

The best way to look at this is to consider the cost of a new car as:
intrinsic new car value + "new car" premium.

After the first few moments the new car premium is lost and most of
the depreciation in value over the first year is that premium.

When you buy a new car you pay that premium which is of value only to you.

>
> I have already explained the basis for my decision, which is more than you
> had a right or a need to know. Reading for comprehension is a wonderful
> thing--you might try it some time.
>
>

What puzzles me is my original post was in response to someone else. You
then jumped in as if I were attacking you. What I was suggesting was a
new thread along the lines of "Repair or Replace".

I don't car if you bought a new car, spend your money however you want.
>
>

root
July 9th 03, 10:43 AM
Bob Ward > wrote:
>
> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
>
>
The Honda *will* at some time require all those [ perhaps not the paint].
None of these parts are particularly expensive. The way to look at
all these is to consider them as consumeables: all mechanical parts of
a car are consumed as you drive. You can replace these parts at once
by buying a new car, or you can replace them serially as they fail.

lpogoda has raised the issue of reliability that cannot be modelled
easily. The incidence of total vehicular disability has been quite
rare in my lifetime of driving. I can imagine, however, that such
an event could be catastrophic.

root
July 9th 03, 10:43 AM
Bob Ward > wrote:
>
> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
>
>
The Honda *will* at some time require all those [ perhaps not the paint].
None of these parts are particularly expensive. The way to look at
all these is to consider them as consumeables: all mechanical parts of
a car are consumed as you drive. You can replace these parts at once
by buying a new car, or you can replace them serially as they fail.

lpogoda has raised the issue of reliability that cannot be modelled
easily. The incidence of total vehicular disability has been quite
rare in my lifetime of driving. I can imagine, however, that such
an event could be catastrophic.

Bob Ward
July 9th 03, 11:49 AM
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:43:00 +0000 (UTC), root >
wrote:

>Bob Ward > wrote:
>>
>> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
>> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
>>
>>
>The Honda *will* at some time require all those [ perhaps not the paint].
>None of these parts are particularly expensive. The way to look at
>all these is to consider them as consumeables: all mechanical parts of
>a car are consumed as you drive. You can replace these parts at once
>by buying a new car, or you can replace them serially as they fail.
>

True - inexpensive *IF* you are capable of and willing to perform the
work yourself. In the case of the original poster, though, that did
not appear to be the case, or credit card financing would not have
been a likelihood.


>lpogoda has raised the issue of reliability that cannot be modelled
>easily. The incidence of total vehicular disability has been quite
>rare in my lifetime of driving. I can imagine, however, that such
>an event could be catastrophic.

Bob Ward
July 9th 03, 11:49 AM
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:43:00 +0000 (UTC), root >
wrote:

>Bob Ward > wrote:
>>
>> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
>> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
>>
>>
>The Honda *will* at some time require all those [ perhaps not the paint].
>None of these parts are particularly expensive. The way to look at
>all these is to consider them as consumeables: all mechanical parts of
>a car are consumed as you drive. You can replace these parts at once
>by buying a new car, or you can replace them serially as they fail.
>

True - inexpensive *IF* you are capable of and willing to perform the
work yourself. In the case of the original poster, though, that did
not appear to be the case, or credit card financing would not have
been a likelihood.


>lpogoda has raised the issue of reliability that cannot be modelled
>easily. The incidence of total vehicular disability has been quite
>rare in my lifetime of driving. I can imagine, however, that such
>an event could be catastrophic.

linda-renee
July 9th 03, 12:36 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> What puzzles me is my original post was in response to someone else. You
> then jumped in as if I were attacking you. What I was suggesting was a
> new thread along the lines of "Repair or Replace".

If you were having a private conversation, you should take it to e-mail. I
was participating in this thread, and Lou's comments about repair or replace
(which is where you jumped in) were in direct response to my own posts about
buying a new car vs. old.

linda-renee
July 9th 03, 12:36 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> What puzzles me is my original post was in response to someone else. You
> then jumped in as if I were attacking you. What I was suggesting was a
> new thread along the lines of "Repair or Replace".

If you were having a private conversation, you should take it to e-mail. I
was participating in this thread, and Lou's comments about repair or replace
(which is where you jumped in) were in direct response to my own posts about
buying a new car vs. old.

linda-renee
July 9th 03, 12:37 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> The bad thing about car repair is you are forced to make a series of
decisions
> without knowing the expected longevity of the remainder of the car. I
thought
> it might be of interest to this group to start a thread about Repair or
Replace.

Yeah, like it's never been discussed in this group 800 times before...<sigh>

linda-renee
July 9th 03, 12:37 PM
"root" > wrote in message

> The bad thing about car repair is you are forced to make a series of
decisions
> without knowing the expected longevity of the remainder of the car. I
thought
> it might be of interest to this group to start a thread about Repair or
Replace.

Yeah, like it's never been discussed in this group 800 times before...<sigh>

root
July 9th 03, 12:41 PM
Bob Ward > wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:43:00 +0000 (UTC), root >
> wrote:
>
>>Bob Ward > wrote:
>>>
>>> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
>>> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
>>>
>>>
>>The Honda *will* at some time require all those [ perhaps not the paint].
>>None of these parts are particularly expensive. The way to look at
>>all these is to consider them as consumeables: all mechanical parts of
>>a car are consumed as you drive. You can replace these parts at once
>>by buying a new car, or you can replace them serially as they fail.
>>
>
> True - inexpensive *IF* you are capable of and willing to perform the
> work yourself. In the case of the original poster, though, that did
> not appear to be the case, or credit card financing would not have
> been a likelihood.
>
>

There is a local place that will do a brake job for $49/axle, struts
about $200 and CV joints about $100. None of that seems prohibitive.
[ local=Pasadena,CA I can be more exact when the next flyer comes]

With upholstery we have just gone with buying seat covers. Paint is
a different story: I would rather just suffer the oxidation of the
original job than go with Earl Scheib again.
>

root
July 9th 03, 12:41 PM
Bob Ward > wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:43:00 +0000 (UTC), root >
> wrote:
>
>>Bob Ward > wrote:
>>>
>>> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
>>> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
>>>
>>>
>>The Honda *will* at some time require all those [ perhaps not the paint].
>>None of these parts are particularly expensive. The way to look at
>>all these is to consider them as consumeables: all mechanical parts of
>>a car are consumed as you drive. You can replace these parts at once
>>by buying a new car, or you can replace them serially as they fail.
>>
>
> True - inexpensive *IF* you are capable of and willing to perform the
> work yourself. In the case of the original poster, though, that did
> not appear to be the case, or credit card financing would not have
> been a likelihood.
>
>

There is a local place that will do a brake job for $49/axle, struts
about $200 and CV joints about $100. None of that seems prohibitive.
[ local=Pasadena,CA I can be more exact when the next flyer comes]

With upholstery we have just gone with buying seat covers. Paint is
a different story: I would rather just suffer the oxidation of the
original job than go with Earl Scheib again.
>

root
July 9th 03, 02:29 PM
linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
> "root" > wrote in message
>
>> The bad thing about car repair is you are forced to make a series of
> decisions
>> without knowing the expected longevity of the remainder of the car. I
> thought
>> it might be of interest to this group to start a thread about Repair or
> Replace.
>
> Yeah, like it's never been discussed in this group 800 times before...<sigh>
>
>

I have only been reading this group since it started. Admittedly I tend to
read only my wife's posts so I might have missed it.

Did your earlier reading cover the "new-car premium"?

root
July 9th 03, 02:29 PM
linda-renee <[email protected]!net> wrote:
> "root" > wrote in message
>
>> The bad thing about car repair is you are forced to make a series of
> decisions
>> without knowing the expected longevity of the remainder of the car. I
> thought
>> it might be of interest to this group to start a thread about Repair or
> Replace.
>
> Yeah, like it's never been discussed in this group 800 times before...<sigh>
>
>

I have only been reading this group since it started. Admittedly I tend to
read only my wife's posts so I might have missed it.

Did your earlier reading cover the "new-car premium"?

Colt
July 9th 03, 04:08 PM
Bob Ward wrote:
>
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:43:00 +0000 (UTC), root >
> wrote:
>
> >Bob Ward > wrote:
> >>
> >> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
> >> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
> >>
> >>
> >The Honda *will* at some time require all those [ perhaps not the paint].
> >None of these parts are particularly expensive. The way to look at
> >all these is to consider them as consumeables: all mechanical parts of
> >a car are consumed as you drive. You can replace these parts at once
> >by buying a new car, or you can replace them serially as they fail.
> >
>
> True - inexpensive *IF* you are capable of and willing to perform the
> work yourself. In the case of the original poster, though, that did
> not appear to be the case, or credit card financing would not have
> been a likelihood.
>
> >lpogoda has raised the issue of reliability that cannot be modelled
> >easily. The incidence of total vehicular disability has been quite
> >rare in my lifetime of driving. I can imagine, however, that such
> >an event could be catastrophic.


A friend of mine had the steering system in her old car stop working
while she was driving it--luckily she was in a parking garage, not on
the road. My S-I-L was driving an old car when she was in an accident
that killed my niece--my niece would probably have been fine in a newer
car. I saw an accident in which an old car was literally broken in half
on impact--the story in the paper the next day said the car had a rusty
frame.

I think it's fine to drive an old car IF I could work on it myself or IF
I had an extremely reliable mechanic.Otherwise, since I can now aafford
newer cars, I choose to buy new cars and sell them when they stop being
relaible (usually after about 10 years). Frugality has to be balanced
with one's need fro reliability.

Colt
July 9th 03, 04:08 PM
Bob Ward wrote:
>
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:43:00 +0000 (UTC), root >
> wrote:
>
> >Bob Ward > wrote:
> >>
> >> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
> >> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
> >>
> >>
> >The Honda *will* at some time require all those [ perhaps not the paint].
> >None of these parts are particularly expensive. The way to look at
> >all these is to consider them as consumeables: all mechanical parts of
> >a car are consumed as you drive. You can replace these parts at once
> >by buying a new car, or you can replace them serially as they fail.
> >
>
> True - inexpensive *IF* you are capable of and willing to perform the
> work yourself. In the case of the original poster, though, that did
> not appear to be the case, or credit card financing would not have
> been a likelihood.
>
> >lpogoda has raised the issue of reliability that cannot be modelled
> >easily. The incidence of total vehicular disability has been quite
> >rare in my lifetime of driving. I can imagine, however, that such
> >an event could be catastrophic.


A friend of mine had the steering system in her old car stop working
while she was driving it--luckily she was in a parking garage, not on
the road. My S-I-L was driving an old car when she was in an accident
that killed my niece--my niece would probably have been fine in a newer
car. I saw an accident in which an old car was literally broken in half
on impact--the story in the paper the next day said the car had a rusty
frame.

I think it's fine to drive an old car IF I could work on it myself or IF
I had an extremely reliable mechanic.Otherwise, since I can now aafford
newer cars, I choose to buy new cars and sell them when they stop being
relaible (usually after about 10 years). Frugality has to be balanced
with one's need fro reliability.

Dennis
July 9th 03, 05:22 PM
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:29:56 +0000 (UTC), root >
wrote:

>I have only been reading this group since it started. Admittedly I tend to
>read only my wife's posts so I might have missed it.

Mr. Real Bev?

the Dennis formerly known as (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

Dennis
July 9th 03, 05:22 PM
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:29:56 +0000 (UTC), root >
wrote:

>I have only been reading this group since it started. Admittedly I tend to
>read only my wife's posts so I might have missed it.

Mr. Real Bev?

the Dennis formerly known as (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

SoCalMike
July 9th 03, 07:28 PM
>
> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?

CV joints, 1 car payment, struts, 1 car payment, upholstery? seat covers!
paint? your call.

51 car payments left!

but yeah, if your car is so bad theres NOTHING good on it, and youre just
tired of it. get a new one. kinda hard to do with a samurai, tho... right?
they arent made anymore, but im sure one in nice condition can be had for
$3000 or less.

but i bet you could keep a samurai running forever for a lot cheaper than a
new car. couldnt you, bob?

SoCalMike
July 9th 03, 07:28 PM
>
> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?

CV joints, 1 car payment, struts, 1 car payment, upholstery? seat covers!
paint? your call.

51 car payments left!

but yeah, if your car is so bad theres NOTHING good on it, and youre just
tired of it. get a new one. kinda hard to do with a samurai, tho... right?
they arent made anymore, but im sure one in nice condition can be had for
$3000 or less.

but i bet you could keep a samurai running forever for a lot cheaper than a
new car. couldnt you, bob?

The Real Bev
July 9th 03, 11:55 PM
Chris Hill wrote:
>
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:41:32 +0000 (UTC), root >
> wrote:
> >
> >There is a local place that will do a brake job for $49/axle, struts
> >about $200 and CV joints about $100. None of that seems prohibitive.
> >[ local=Pasadena,CA I can be more exact when the next flyer comes]
> >
> >With upholstery we have just gone with buying seat covers. Paint is
> >a different story: I would rather just suffer the oxidation of the
> >original job than go with Earl Scheib again.
> >>
>
> The trouble is finding someone who'll do a decent job. I've never
> seen struts that cheap. I believe that a brand new car can be more
> frugal than a newer used car, depending on who's been doing or not
> doing the maintenance on the latter.

My mom has all her maintenance done by the local dealer. When she wanted
to trade up, the guy wanted to give her so little that I'm convinced he
knew how ****ty his service was. She passes her old cars on to me, and
with both (one Ford, one Caddy) I was unpleasantly surprised at the
sloppiness of the work that had been done.

--
Cheers,
Bev
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$
"If you put the government in charge of the desert, there would
be a sand shortage within ten years." -- M. Friedman (?)

The Real Bev
July 9th 03, 11:55 PM
Chris Hill wrote:
>
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:41:32 +0000 (UTC), root >
> wrote:
> >
> >There is a local place that will do a brake job for $49/axle, struts
> >about $200 and CV joints about $100. None of that seems prohibitive.
> >[ local=Pasadena,CA I can be more exact when the next flyer comes]
> >
> >With upholstery we have just gone with buying seat covers. Paint is
> >a different story: I would rather just suffer the oxidation of the
> >original job than go with Earl Scheib again.
> >>
>
> The trouble is finding someone who'll do a decent job. I've never
> seen struts that cheap. I believe that a brand new car can be more
> frugal than a newer used car, depending on who's been doing or not
> doing the maintenance on the latter.

My mom has all her maintenance done by the local dealer. When she wanted
to trade up, the guy wanted to give her so little that I'm convinced he
knew how ****ty his service was. She passes her old cars on to me, and
with both (one Ford, one Caddy) I was unpleasantly surprised at the
sloppiness of the work that had been done.

--
Cheers,
Bev
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$
"If you put the government in charge of the desert, there would
be a sand shortage within ten years." -- M. Friedman (?)

Bob Ward
July 10th 03, 03:00 AM
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 17:28:22 GMT, "SoCalMike"
> wrote:

>
>
>>
>> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
>> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
>
>CV joints, 1 car payment, struts, 1 car payment, upholstery? seat covers!
>paint? your call.
>
>51 car payments left!
>
>but yeah, if your car is so bad theres NOTHING good on it, and youre just
>tired of it. get a new one. kinda hard to do with a samurai, tho... right?
>they arent made anymore, but im sure one in nice condition can be had for
>$3000 or less.
>
>but i bet you could keep a samurai running forever for a lot cheaper than a
>new car. couldnt you, bob?
>

Part of the secret is in never letting maintenance go until small
problems become big ones. Check oil and water every time I buy gas,
check tire pressure at least weekly, keep an eye on the brake pads and
you seldom have to buy rotors... The Sami is so light that the tires
usually end up rotting long before tread wear becomes an issue.

I paid $800 for my first Sami, and put maybe $250 into maintenance
items over three years - it's now my weekend beater, and I have
another for my daily driver - both are the same year and model, so,
yeah, I expect to have a driveable Sami for a long time to come.

Lack of A/C in the summer, and a rather stiff ride means that I'm not
likely to make many long road trips, but for cheap, dependable local
transportation, they are hard to beat, in my book.

Bob Ward
July 10th 03, 03:00 AM
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 17:28:22 GMT, "SoCalMike"
> wrote:

>
>
>>
>> And what if that high-mileage Honda also needs a complete brake job,
>> CV joints, struts, upholstery, paint, etc?
>
>CV joints, 1 car payment, struts, 1 car payment, upholstery? seat covers!
>paint? your call.
>
>51 car payments left!
>
>but yeah, if your car is so bad theres NOTHING good on it, and youre just
>tired of it. get a new one. kinda hard to do with a samurai, tho... right?
>they arent made anymore, but im sure one in nice condition can be had for
>$3000 or less.
>
>but i bet you could keep a samurai running forever for a lot cheaper than a
>new car. couldnt you, bob?
>

Part of the secret is in never letting maintenance go until small
problems become big ones. Check oil and water every time I buy gas,
check tire pressure at least weekly, keep an eye on the brake pads and
you seldom have to buy rotors... The Sami is so light that the tires
usually end up rotting long before tread wear becomes an issue.

I paid $800 for my first Sami, and put maybe $250 into maintenance
items over three years - it's now my weekend beater, and I have
another for my daily driver - both are the same year and model, so,
yeah, I expect to have a driveable Sami for a long time to come.

Lack of A/C in the summer, and a rather stiff ride means that I'm not
likely to make many long road trips, but for cheap, dependable local
transportation, they are hard to beat, in my book.

Google