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View Full Version : Re: Plant Labels - from used aluminium cans


Dwight Sipler
July 14th 03, 07:39 PM
al wrote:
>
> One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to make permanent
> plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the shiny metal
> side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work... erm
> how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?)




I've not used this technique but it would probably work somewhat. You
would just cut the can into strips and write on the inside with some
sort of stylus (an old ball point pen would work). The metal is soft and
will take an impression of the writing if you back it up with a couple
of sheets of newspaper on a hard surface. The writing is just impressed
in the metal surface and is not colored, so it is not easy to read from
a distance.

Aluminum does oxidize over time, particularly when exposed to acid rain.
However, the metal labels you buy at the garden center will likely have
the same problem. The cans have the advantage that they're anodized to
prevent corrosion by the stuff they put into them.

The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.

The labels will have to be mounted on something to hold them up. A
length of galvanized wire can be bent around the strip and hammered
tight to hold the label. Wood supports will rot.

July 14th 03, 07:46 PM
Dwight Sipler > wrote:

>The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
>bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.

I think cutting up a bleach jug and using a permanent marker might be a better
idea. No sharp edges and the plastic lasts a long time. Could be a use for
old floppies too. Thread a wire or string through the hole and write on the
floppy with a marker.

July 14th 03, 07:46 PM
Dwight Sipler > wrote:

>The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
>bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.

I think cutting up a bleach jug and using a permanent marker might be a better
idea. No sharp edges and the plastic lasts a long time. Could be a use for
old floppies too. Thread a wire or string through the hole and write on the
floppy with a marker.

paghat
July 14th 03, 08:14 PM
In article >, al > wrote:

> One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to make permanent
> plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the shiny metal
> side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work... erm
> how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?)

The Rhododendron Species Foundation has sometimes used aluminum tags for
field-grown species shrubs -- as these labels have to last several years
before the shrubs are old enough to put on sale. The tags must be removed
from plants before the shrubs are sold, as one rarely sees any of them,
but I obtained one rhody from them that I later found had an aluminum tag
that had the attached end deeply imbedded in the bark. The aluminum had
been EMBOSSED with species name, date it was planted (or a least tagged, a
decade earlier), & initials RSF. There must be some equivalent of those
plastic label strips to emboss aluminum strips instead of plastic.

The surface of aluminum turns black over time & rubs off, though I
wouldn't call that "colourize" which is what I thought crazy rich *******s
did to classic black & white films.

Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science Digest
did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
researchers thought it much likely. A few researchers think the link is
plausible; others think the aluminum deposits are an incidental
side-effect of other causes. From a lay perspective though it seems that
the only other possible explanation for these deposits, other than from
our continuous exposure to man-made aluminum, is that the human body can
go wacky & begin to manufacture aluminum from boxite, which is all around
us in the natural environment whereas aluminum is not. For there's no
question but that the majority of alzheimer patients have amazingly high
levels of aluminum deposits in the brain tissue. So while the science
proving or disproving a source of explanation for these deposits has
failed to clarify the issue, in the meantime anyone with aluminum kitchen
pots & utensils should toss them immediately; & check medications &
deodorants for aluminates with which we may be dosing ourselves orally or
through the skin every day. As for aluminum beverage cans, they are coated
inside & out -- everwhere except where the key-hole opening bares the raw
aluminum in the one place we'd put our mouths. So I avoid those too.

I wouldn't want aluminum in the garden, first because it would be, like
plastic, an eyesoar, for I like things to look as woodsy-natural as
possible. Plus, even if a few aluminum tags here & there would likely be
harmless whether or not aluminum's connection to severe loss of mental
faculty can be shown to be factual, it'd still be like hanging symbols of
humanity's self-invented doom all around the place, & I prefer the
symbolism of my gardens to refer more to Eden rather than some futuristic
city designed by Albert Speer.

-paghat the ratgirl
preferring to die from UNrefined sugar

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
July 14th 03, 08:14 PM
In article >, al > wrote:

> One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to make permanent
> plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the shiny metal
> side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work... erm
> how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?)

The Rhododendron Species Foundation has sometimes used aluminum tags for
field-grown species shrubs -- as these labels have to last several years
before the shrubs are old enough to put on sale. The tags must be removed
from plants before the shrubs are sold, as one rarely sees any of them,
but I obtained one rhody from them that I later found had an aluminum tag
that had the attached end deeply imbedded in the bark. The aluminum had
been EMBOSSED with species name, date it was planted (or a least tagged, a
decade earlier), & initials RSF. There must be some equivalent of those
plastic label strips to emboss aluminum strips instead of plastic.

The surface of aluminum turns black over time & rubs off, though I
wouldn't call that "colourize" which is what I thought crazy rich *******s
did to classic black & white films.

Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science Digest
did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
researchers thought it much likely. A few researchers think the link is
plausible; others think the aluminum deposits are an incidental
side-effect of other causes. From a lay perspective though it seems that
the only other possible explanation for these deposits, other than from
our continuous exposure to man-made aluminum, is that the human body can
go wacky & begin to manufacture aluminum from boxite, which is all around
us in the natural environment whereas aluminum is not. For there's no
question but that the majority of alzheimer patients have amazingly high
levels of aluminum deposits in the brain tissue. So while the science
proving or disproving a source of explanation for these deposits has
failed to clarify the issue, in the meantime anyone with aluminum kitchen
pots & utensils should toss them immediately; & check medications &
deodorants for aluminates with which we may be dosing ourselves orally or
through the skin every day. As for aluminum beverage cans, they are coated
inside & out -- everwhere except where the key-hole opening bares the raw
aluminum in the one place we'd put our mouths. So I avoid those too.

I wouldn't want aluminum in the garden, first because it would be, like
plastic, an eyesoar, for I like things to look as woodsy-natural as
possible. Plus, even if a few aluminum tags here & there would likely be
harmless whether or not aluminum's connection to severe loss of mental
faculty can be shown to be factual, it'd still be like hanging symbols of
humanity's self-invented doom all around the place, & I prefer the
symbolism of my gardens to refer more to Eden rather than some futuristic
city designed by Albert Speer.

-paghat the ratgirl
preferring to die from UNrefined sugar

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
July 14th 03, 08:28 PM
In article >, wrote:

> Dwight Sipler > wrote:
>
> >The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
> >bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.
>
> I think cutting up a bleach jug and using a permanent marker might be a better
> idea. No sharp edges and the plastic lasts a long time. Could be a use for
> old floppies too. Thread a wire or string through the hole and write on the
> floppy with a marker.

I'm picturing a garden decorated with cut-up Budweisser cans & Clorox bottles.

How 'bout making an elaborate paper collage with the name of each plant
somewhere on the collage, imbed the collage in a block of fiberglass
resin, mount the block of resin on a three foot length of rebar, & pound
these in the ground in front of each plant.

OR, buy a kiln to manufacture your own bathroom tiles but adapted as
garden tiles, each tile glazed with naive images of flowers, & the name of
the plant, & these would be strewn about in the garden in from of each
plant.

OR, with copper wire & the tiniest glass beads, use needlenosed pliars to
shape a length of beaded wire into the name of the plant. Nail this to the
top edge of a one-foot-long chunk of two-by-four & cement the other end of
the 2x4 into the ground near the labeled plant.

OR, with a woodburning kit make Buddhist gravemarkers our of slats, with
the names of flowers instead of the dead burnt right into the slats. If
you're worried the wooden slats will rot in a few years, then get plastic
toy airplanes in all sorts of colors, & use the woodburning kit to melt in
the names of the plants on the wings of the airplanes & hang them from the
appropriate plants.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
July 14th 03, 08:28 PM
In article >, wrote:

> Dwight Sipler > wrote:
>
> >The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
> >bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.
>
> I think cutting up a bleach jug and using a permanent marker might be a better
> idea. No sharp edges and the plastic lasts a long time. Could be a use for
> old floppies too. Thread a wire or string through the hole and write on the
> floppy with a marker.

I'm picturing a garden decorated with cut-up Budweisser cans & Clorox bottles.

How 'bout making an elaborate paper collage with the name of each plant
somewhere on the collage, imbed the collage in a block of fiberglass
resin, mount the block of resin on a three foot length of rebar, & pound
these in the ground in front of each plant.

OR, buy a kiln to manufacture your own bathroom tiles but adapted as
garden tiles, each tile glazed with naive images of flowers, & the name of
the plant, & these would be strewn about in the garden in from of each
plant.

OR, with copper wire & the tiniest glass beads, use needlenosed pliars to
shape a length of beaded wire into the name of the plant. Nail this to the
top edge of a one-foot-long chunk of two-by-four & cement the other end of
the 2x4 into the ground near the labeled plant.

OR, with a woodburning kit make Buddhist gravemarkers our of slats, with
the names of flowers instead of the dead burnt right into the slats. If
you're worried the wooden slats will rot in a few years, then get plastic
toy airplanes in all sorts of colors, & use the woodburning kit to melt in
the names of the plants on the wings of the airplanes & hang them from the
appropriate plants.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Dwight Sipler
July 14th 03, 08:43 PM
paghat wrote:
>
>...I'm picturing a garden decorated with cut-up Budweisser cans & Clorox bottles.
>
> How 'bout making an elaborate paper collage with the name of each plant
> somewhere on the collage, imbed the collage in a block of fiberglass
> resin, mount the block of resin on a three foot length of rebar, & pound
> these in the ground in front of each plant....<plus several other suggestions>...



I know a couple of guys who would like their garden decorated with beer
cans (Labatt's blue, not Bud), but it's not for everyone.

The labels are generally meant to be unobtrusive, just there for
information, so they might be small and not detract from the flowers
(which are, after all, the main point). Also, the printed label part of
the cans would be on the back, so you'd only see the "inside" of the
can. Personally, I'd rather put my effort into the garden and not the
labels, but then my garden is just there without any labels at all, so
you will have to guess what's what.

PS: plastic bottles are generally not protected against solar UV, so
they will disintegrate with exposure. Anywhere from a couple of months
to a couple of years.

Dwight Sipler
July 14th 03, 08:43 PM
paghat wrote:
>
>...I'm picturing a garden decorated with cut-up Budweisser cans & Clorox bottles.
>
> How 'bout making an elaborate paper collage with the name of each plant
> somewhere on the collage, imbed the collage in a block of fiberglass
> resin, mount the block of resin on a three foot length of rebar, & pound
> these in the ground in front of each plant....<plus several other suggestions>...



I know a couple of guys who would like their garden decorated with beer
cans (Labatt's blue, not Bud), but it's not for everyone.

The labels are generally meant to be unobtrusive, just there for
information, so they might be small and not detract from the flowers
(which are, after all, the main point). Also, the printed label part of
the cans would be on the back, so you'd only see the "inside" of the
can. Personally, I'd rather put my effort into the garden and not the
labels, but then my garden is just there without any labels at all, so
you will have to guess what's what.

PS: plastic bottles are generally not protected against solar UV, so
they will disintegrate with exposure. Anywhere from a couple of months
to a couple of years.

Dwight Sipler
July 14th 03, 08:44 PM
pelirojaroja wrote:
>
> I used a bunch of old CDs (those AOL sample CDs, etc.). Flipped them on the
> "pretty" side and used permanent marker. They look neat and make pretty
> rainbows, too. ;-)





Mine are all in use as coasters for the beer cans.

Dwight Sipler
July 14th 03, 08:44 PM
pelirojaroja wrote:
>
> I used a bunch of old CDs (those AOL sample CDs, etc.). Flipped them on the
> "pretty" side and used permanent marker. They look neat and make pretty
> rainbows, too. ;-)





Mine are all in use as coasters for the beer cans.

David Hill
July 14th 03, 11:19 PM
"....... One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to
make permanent plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the
shiny metal
side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work... erm
how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?) ........"

You cut the label to the size you want then using an old Ball point pen you
inscribe the name, the indentation will last for years.

If you want to label tree or shrub then make a hole at each end . Insert
soft wire into one end, then wind several coils around your ball point pen
to form a coil like a spring, then plain wire to other end of the label.
As the tree or shrub grows there is plenty of slack in the coil, so nothing
gets embedded in the plant.



--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

David Hill
July 14th 03, 11:19 PM
"....... One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to
make permanent plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the
shiny metal
side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work... erm
how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?) ........"

You cut the label to the size you want then using an old Ball point pen you
inscribe the name, the indentation will last for years.

If you want to label tree or shrub then make a hole at each end . Insert
soft wire into one end, then wind several coils around your ball point pen
to form a coil like a spring, then plain wire to other end of the label.
As the tree or shrub grows there is plenty of slack in the coil, so nothing
gets embedded in the plant.



--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

paghat
July 15th 03, 02:09 AM
In article >, "pelirojaroja"
> wrote:

> I used a bunch of old CDs (those AOL sample CDs, etc.). Flipped them on the
> "pretty" side and used permanent marker. They look neat and make pretty
> rainbows, too. ;-)

Stop, yr killing me!

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
July 15th 03, 02:09 AM
In article >, "pelirojaroja"
> wrote:

> I used a bunch of old CDs (those AOL sample CDs, etc.). Flipped them on the
> "pretty" side and used permanent marker. They look neat and make pretty
> rainbows, too. ;-)

Stop, yr killing me!

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Don K
July 15th 03, 03:00 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science Digest
> did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> researchers thought it much likely.

Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
is man-made.


[snip]....So while the science
> proving or disproving a source of explanation for these deposits has
> failed to clarify the issue, in the meantime anyone with aluminum kitchen
> pots & utensils should toss them immediately;

What credible authority recommends that? NIH doesn't.

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/alum.htm


> I wouldn't want aluminum in the garden, first because it would be, like
> plastic, an eyesoar, for I like things to look as woodsy-natural as
> possible.

Considering that the earth is 8.1% aluminum, I'd say it would be
entirely fitting to have some aluminum in the garden.

Don

Don K
July 15th 03, 03:00 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science Digest
> did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> researchers thought it much likely.

Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
is man-made.


[snip]....So while the science
> proving or disproving a source of explanation for these deposits has
> failed to clarify the issue, in the meantime anyone with aluminum kitchen
> pots & utensils should toss them immediately;

What credible authority recommends that? NIH doesn't.

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/alum.htm


> I wouldn't want aluminum in the garden, first because it would be, like
> plastic, an eyesoar, for I like things to look as woodsy-natural as
> possible.

Considering that the earth is 8.1% aluminum, I'd say it would be
entirely fitting to have some aluminum in the garden.

Don

Salty Thumb
July 15th 03, 03:04 AM
(paghat) wrote in
:

> the meantime anyone with aluminum kitchen pots & utensils should toss
> them immediately; & check medications & deodorants for aluminates with
> which we may be dosing ourselves orally or through the skin every day.
> As for aluminum beverage cans, they are coated inside & out --
> everwhere except where the key-hole opening bares the raw aluminum in
> the one place we'd put our mouths. So I avoid those too.

I'd be more worried about the sodium aluminum phosphate they typically use
in fake cheese. other possibly bad stuff for your brain: monosodium
glutamate (MSG) and aspartme (Nutrasweet)

- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 15th 03, 03:04 AM
(paghat) wrote in
:

> the meantime anyone with aluminum kitchen pots & utensils should toss
> them immediately; & check medications & deodorants for aluminates with
> which we may be dosing ourselves orally or through the skin every day.
> As for aluminum beverage cans, they are coated inside & out --
> everwhere except where the key-hole opening bares the raw aluminum in
> the one place we'd put our mouths. So I avoid those too.

I'd be more worried about the sodium aluminum phosphate they typically use
in fake cheese. other possibly bad stuff for your brain: monosodium
glutamate (MSG) and aspartme (Nutrasweet)

- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 15th 03, 03:20 AM
"Don K" > wrote in
:

> "paghat" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
>> development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science
>> Digest did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of
>> ten researchers thought it much likely.
>
> Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
> is man-made.

Arguably the stuff that comes to you is man-made (in the same way a wooden
chair is man-made) as it needs to be processed from bauxite and other
struddlishish stuff that I don't recall going by the name Hall-Herholtz
process (or just Hall if you don't like simultaneous discoveries).

> [snip]....So while the science
>> proving or disproving a source of explanation for these deposits has
>> failed to clarify the issue, in the meantime anyone with aluminum
>> kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately;
>
> What credible authority recommends that? NIH doesn't.
>
> http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/alum.htm

That's all nice and good if you trust the government. The same government
that said you can't get anthrax in the mail and spent beaucoup bucks
fumigating government offices and didn't get around to giving el cheapo
masks or gloves to postal personnel until later, but I digress.

I agree it seems unlikely that you'll get aluminum toxicity from cans or
cookware, it's more likely the stuff you eat and is passed as 'safe'. I'm
a little wishy-washy on the subject, from my little knowledge of chemistry,
the binding energy of aluminum oxide is quite high and anodizing it causes
the protective layer of aluminum oxide to cover the entire surfaces (no
significant gaps), so getting some aluminum out of that should be quite
difficult, but then I'm reminded of the all the corrosion I've seen on
aluminum storm windows and think, why take the chance?

>> I wouldn't want aluminum in the garden, first because it would be,
>> like plastic, an eyesoar, for I like things to look as woodsy-natural
>> as possible.
>
> Considering that the earth is 8.1% aluminum, I'd say it would be
> entirely fitting to have some aluminum in the garden.

If my garden is already 8.1% aluminum I don't see why it would be necessary
to add more.

-- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 15th 03, 03:20 AM
"Don K" > wrote in
:

> "paghat" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
>> development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science
>> Digest did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of
>> ten researchers thought it much likely.
>
> Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
> is man-made.

Arguably the stuff that comes to you is man-made (in the same way a wooden
chair is man-made) as it needs to be processed from bauxite and other
struddlishish stuff that I don't recall going by the name Hall-Herholtz
process (or just Hall if you don't like simultaneous discoveries).

> [snip]....So while the science
>> proving or disproving a source of explanation for these deposits has
>> failed to clarify the issue, in the meantime anyone with aluminum
>> kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately;
>
> What credible authority recommends that? NIH doesn't.
>
> http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/alum.htm

That's all nice and good if you trust the government. The same government
that said you can't get anthrax in the mail and spent beaucoup bucks
fumigating government offices and didn't get around to giving el cheapo
masks or gloves to postal personnel until later, but I digress.

I agree it seems unlikely that you'll get aluminum toxicity from cans or
cookware, it's more likely the stuff you eat and is passed as 'safe'. I'm
a little wishy-washy on the subject, from my little knowledge of chemistry,
the binding energy of aluminum oxide is quite high and anodizing it causes
the protective layer of aluminum oxide to cover the entire surfaces (no
significant gaps), so getting some aluminum out of that should be quite
difficult, but then I'm reminded of the all the corrosion I've seen on
aluminum storm windows and think, why take the chance?

>> I wouldn't want aluminum in the garden, first because it would be,
>> like plastic, an eyesoar, for I like things to look as woodsy-natural
>> as possible.
>
> Considering that the earth is 8.1% aluminum, I'd say it would be
> entirely fitting to have some aluminum in the garden.

If my garden is already 8.1% aluminum I don't see why it would be necessary
to add more.

-- Salty

July 15th 03, 06:16 AM
"Dwight Sipler" > wrote in message
...
> al wrote:
> >
> > One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to make
permanent
> > plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the shiny metal
> > side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work...
erm
> > how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?)
>
>
>
>
> I've not used this technique but it would probably work somewhat. You
> would just cut the can into strips and write on the inside with some
> sort of stylus (an old ball point pen would work). The metal is soft and
> will take an impression of the writing if you back it up with a couple
> of sheets of newspaper on a hard surface. The writing is just impressed
> in the metal surface and is not colored, so it is not easy to read from
> a distance.
>
> Aluminum does oxidize over time, particularly when exposed to acid rain.
> However, the metal labels you buy at the garden center will likely have
> the same problem. The cans have the advantage that they're anodized to
> prevent corrosion by the stuff they put into them.
>
> The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
> bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.

I hung mine from varnished copper wire. (avail from TV, but galvanic action
hurts aluminium)

creating these is a very time consuming way to get very few and flimsy
labels with sharp edges. I consider it an experiment from my youthful
time-wasting youth. (redundancy)

(unless you're Ted kascymski[sp] in a remote cabin with hand tools):
I recommend you buy and ration the long lasting durable labels. use plastic
(PVC) labels for seed staring pencil marks can be rubbed off. surviving
plants receive permanent labels after proving their survival and other value
(pollen or seed source, etc)



> The labels will have to be mounted on something to hold them up. A
> length of galvanized wire can be bent around the strip and hammered
> tight to hold the label. Wood supports will rot.

July 15th 03, 06:16 AM
"Dwight Sipler" > wrote in message
...
> al wrote:
> >
> > One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to make
permanent
> > plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the shiny metal
> > side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work...
erm
> > how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?)
>
>
>
>
> I've not used this technique but it would probably work somewhat. You
> would just cut the can into strips and write on the inside with some
> sort of stylus (an old ball point pen would work). The metal is soft and
> will take an impression of the writing if you back it up with a couple
> of sheets of newspaper on a hard surface. The writing is just impressed
> in the metal surface and is not colored, so it is not easy to read from
> a distance.
>
> Aluminum does oxidize over time, particularly when exposed to acid rain.
> However, the metal labels you buy at the garden center will likely have
> the same problem. The cans have the advantage that they're anodized to
> prevent corrosion by the stuff they put into them.
>
> The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
> bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.

I hung mine from varnished copper wire. (avail from TV, but galvanic action
hurts aluminium)

creating these is a very time consuming way to get very few and flimsy
labels with sharp edges. I consider it an experiment from my youthful
time-wasting youth. (redundancy)

(unless you're Ted kascymski[sp] in a remote cabin with hand tools):
I recommend you buy and ration the long lasting durable labels. use plastic
(PVC) labels for seed staring pencil marks can be rubbed off. surviving
plants receive permanent labels after proving their survival and other value
(pollen or seed source, etc)



> The labels will have to be mounted on something to hold them up. A
> length of galvanized wire can be bent around the strip and hammered
> tight to hold the label. Wood supports will rot.

July 15th 03, 06:20 AM
> wrote in message
...
> Dwight Sipler > wrote:
>
> >The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
> >bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.
>
> I think cutting up a bleach jug and using a permanent marker might be a
better
> idea. No sharp edges and the plastic lasts a long time.

hdpe goes fast in uv's. all pe resists glues, paints, markers.

btw, laundry marker lasts longer (1 yr) than sharpies (3 months) when
exposed to sunlight.


>Could be a use for
> old floppies too. Thread a wire or string through the hole and write on
the
> floppy with a marker.


fwiw, aol cd's in sun don't hold sharpie very long either.

July 15th 03, 06:20 AM
> wrote in message
...
> Dwight Sipler > wrote:
>
> >The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
> >bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.
>
> I think cutting up a bleach jug and using a permanent marker might be a
better
> idea. No sharp edges and the plastic lasts a long time.

hdpe goes fast in uv's. all pe resists glues, paints, markers.

btw, laundry marker lasts longer (1 yr) than sharpies (3 months) when
exposed to sunlight.


>Could be a use for
> old floppies too. Thread a wire or string through the hole and write on
the
> floppy with a marker.


fwiw, aol cd's in sun don't hold sharpie very long either.

July 15th 03, 06:33 AM
"Dwight Sipler" > wrote in message
...
> paghat wrote:
> >
> >...I'm picturing a garden decorated with cut-up Budweisser cans & Clorox
bottles.

paghat gave lots of creative ideas :)

ilike the idea (modified) of using uv resitant paint (epoxy??) on cheap
ceramic tile.


> > How 'bout making an elaborate paper collage with the name of each plant
> > somewhere on the collage, imbed the collage in a block of fiberglass
> > resin, mount the block of resin on a three foot length of rebar, & pound
> > these in the ground in front of each plant....<plus several other
suggestions>...
>
>
>
> I know a couple of guys who would like their garden decorated with beer
> cans (Labatt's blue, not Bud), but it's not for everyone.
>
> The labels are generally meant to be unobtrusive, just there for
> information, so they might be small and not detract from the flowers
> (which are, after all, the main point). Also, the printed label part of
> the cans would be on the back, so you'd only see the "inside" of the
> can. Personally, I'd rather put my effort into the garden and not the
> labels, but then my garden is just there without any labels at all, so
> you will have to guess what's what.
>
> PS: plastic bottles are generally not protected against solar UV, so
> they will disintegrate with exposure. Anywhere from a couple of months
> to a couple of years.

PET (recycling #1) last along time in the sun, 10 years and only partially
weakened) but they resist marking. they could be scratched, but scratched
names (such as Comtesse de Canker § will likely be illegible, due to limited
control of the scrawling tool.


----
§ Unfortunate Rose Names http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad2/RoseNames.html

July 15th 03, 06:33 AM
"Dwight Sipler" > wrote in message
...
> paghat wrote:
> >
> >...I'm picturing a garden decorated with cut-up Budweisser cans & Clorox
bottles.

paghat gave lots of creative ideas :)

ilike the idea (modified) of using uv resitant paint (epoxy??) on cheap
ceramic tile.


> > How 'bout making an elaborate paper collage with the name of each plant
> > somewhere on the collage, imbed the collage in a block of fiberglass
> > resin, mount the block of resin on a three foot length of rebar, & pound
> > these in the ground in front of each plant....<plus several other
suggestions>...
>
>
>
> I know a couple of guys who would like their garden decorated with beer
> cans (Labatt's blue, not Bud), but it's not for everyone.
>
> The labels are generally meant to be unobtrusive, just there for
> information, so they might be small and not detract from the flowers
> (which are, after all, the main point). Also, the printed label part of
> the cans would be on the back, so you'd only see the "inside" of the
> can. Personally, I'd rather put my effort into the garden and not the
> labels, but then my garden is just there without any labels at all, so
> you will have to guess what's what.
>
> PS: plastic bottles are generally not protected against solar UV, so
> they will disintegrate with exposure. Anywhere from a couple of months
> to a couple of years.

PET (recycling #1) last along time in the sun, 10 years and only partially
weakened) but they resist marking. they could be scratched, but scratched
names (such as Comtesse de Canker § will likely be illegible, due to limited
control of the scrawling tool.


----
§ Unfortunate Rose Names http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad2/RoseNames.html

July 15th 03, 06:42 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, al >
wrote:


> The Rhododendron Species Foundation has sometimes used aluminum tags for
> field-grown species shrubs -- as these labels have to last several years
> before the shrubs are old enough to put on sale. The tags must be removed
> from plants before the shrubs are sold, as one rarely sees any of them,
> but I obtained one rhody from them that I later found had an aluminum tag
> that had the attached end deeply imbedded in the bark. The aluminum had
> been EMBOSSED with species name, date it was planted (or a least tagged, a
> decade earlier), & initials RSF. There must be some equivalent of those
> plastic label strips to emboss aluminum strips instead of plastic.

yes i've seen old metal stamping sets (amateru) they are perhaps cheapo
versoins of old manual typsetting lettering sets. look like the metal
striking surface from typewriters. very time cionsuming to line teh blocks
in a holder, though i've never tried.

> The surface of aluminum turns black over time & rubs off, though I
> wouldn't call that "colourize" which is what I thought crazy rich *******s
> did to classic black & white films.


:)

> Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science Digest
> did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> researchers thought it much likely. A few researchers think the link is
> plausible; others think the aluminum deposits are an incidental
> side-effect of other causes. From a lay perspective though it seems that
> the only other possible explanation for these deposits, other than from
> our continuous exposure to man-made aluminum, is that the human body can
> go wacky & begin to manufacture aluminum from boxite,

[bauxite in english]

which is all around
> us in the natural environment whereas aluminum is not. For there's no
> question but that the majority of alzheimer patients have amazingly high
> levels of aluminum deposits in the brain tissue. So while the science
> proving or disproving a source of explanation for these deposits has
> failed to clarify the issue, in the meantime anyone with aluminum kitchen
> pots & utensils should toss them immediately; & check medications &
> deodorants for aluminates with which we may be dosing ourselves orally or
> through the skin every day. As for aluminum beverage cans, they are coated
> inside & out -- everwhere except where the key-hole opening bares the raw
> aluminum in the one place we'd put our mouths. So I avoid those too.
>
> I wouldn't want aluminum in the garden, first because it would be, like
> plastic, an eyesoar, for I like things to look as woodsy-natural as
> possible. Plus, even if a few aluminum tags here & there would likely be
> harmless whether or not aluminum's connection to severe loss of mental
> faculty can be shown to be factual, it'd still be like hanging symbols of
> humanity's self-invented doom all around the place, & I prefer the
> symbolism of my gardens to refer more to Eden rather than some futuristic
> city designed by Albert Speer.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl
> preferring to die from UNrefined sugar

than from pol;yKeferiNacronates or KrapoOrganKeellerKryonitez?

July 15th 03, 06:42 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, al >
wrote:


> The Rhododendron Species Foundation has sometimes used aluminum tags for
> field-grown species shrubs -- as these labels have to last several years
> before the shrubs are old enough to put on sale. The tags must be removed
> from plants before the shrubs are sold, as one rarely sees any of them,
> but I obtained one rhody from them that I later found had an aluminum tag
> that had the attached end deeply imbedded in the bark. The aluminum had
> been EMBOSSED with species name, date it was planted (or a least tagged, a
> decade earlier), & initials RSF. There must be some equivalent of those
> plastic label strips to emboss aluminum strips instead of plastic.

yes i've seen old metal stamping sets (amateru) they are perhaps cheapo
versoins of old manual typsetting lettering sets. look like the metal
striking surface from typewriters. very time cionsuming to line teh blocks
in a holder, though i've never tried.

> The surface of aluminum turns black over time & rubs off, though I
> wouldn't call that "colourize" which is what I thought crazy rich *******s
> did to classic black & white films.


:)

> Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science Digest
> did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> researchers thought it much likely. A few researchers think the link is
> plausible; others think the aluminum deposits are an incidental
> side-effect of other causes. From a lay perspective though it seems that
> the only other possible explanation for these deposits, other than from
> our continuous exposure to man-made aluminum, is that the human body can
> go wacky & begin to manufacture aluminum from boxite,

[bauxite in english]

which is all around
> us in the natural environment whereas aluminum is not. For there's no
> question but that the majority of alzheimer patients have amazingly high
> levels of aluminum deposits in the brain tissue. So while the science
> proving or disproving a source of explanation for these deposits has
> failed to clarify the issue, in the meantime anyone with aluminum kitchen
> pots & utensils should toss them immediately; & check medications &
> deodorants for aluminates with which we may be dosing ourselves orally or
> through the skin every day. As for aluminum beverage cans, they are coated
> inside & out -- everwhere except where the key-hole opening bares the raw
> aluminum in the one place we'd put our mouths. So I avoid those too.
>
> I wouldn't want aluminum in the garden, first because it would be, like
> plastic, an eyesoar, for I like things to look as woodsy-natural as
> possible. Plus, even if a few aluminum tags here & there would likely be
> harmless whether or not aluminum's connection to severe loss of mental
> faculty can be shown to be factual, it'd still be like hanging symbols of
> humanity's self-invented doom all around the place, & I prefer the
> symbolism of my gardens to refer more to Eden rather than some futuristic
> city designed by Albert Speer.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl
> preferring to die from UNrefined sugar

than from pol;yKeferiNacronates or KrapoOrganKeellerKryonitez?

July 15th 03, 06:47 AM
"David Hill" > wrote in message
...
> "....... One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to
> make permanent plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto
the
> shiny metal
> side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work...
erm
> how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?) ........"
>
> You cut the label to the size you want then using an old Ball point pen
you
> inscribe the name, the indentation will last for years.

that was my final incarnation of my time wasting experiments. but was still
too difficult to control the writing to be legible later.

and my wire was still incorrect. SS wire might be better, but where to get
at scrap prices?


> If you want to label tree or shrub then make a hole at each end . Insert
> soft wire into one end, then wind several coils around your ball point
pen
> to form a coil like a spring, then plain wire to other end of the label.
> As the tree or shrub grows there is plenty of slack in the coil, so
nothing
> gets embedded in the plant.

or you can hammer a nail hole and stuff the wire radially oriented into the
limb. would avoid this if would attract disease in your areas.

> David Hill
> Abacus nurseries
> www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

July 15th 03, 06:47 AM
"David Hill" > wrote in message
...
> "....... One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to
> make permanent plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto
the
> shiny metal
> side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work...
erm
> how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?) ........"
>
> You cut the label to the size you want then using an old Ball point pen
you
> inscribe the name, the indentation will last for years.

that was my final incarnation of my time wasting experiments. but was still
too difficult to control the writing to be legible later.

and my wire was still incorrect. SS wire might be better, but where to get
at scrap prices?


> If you want to label tree or shrub then make a hole at each end . Insert
> soft wire into one end, then wind several coils around your ball point
pen
> to form a coil like a spring, then plain wire to other end of the label.
> As the tree or shrub grows there is plenty of slack in the coil, so
nothing
> gets embedded in the plant.

or you can hammer a nail hole and stuff the wire radially oriented into the
limb. would avoid this if would attract disease in your areas.

> David Hill
> Abacus nurseries
> www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

Ned Flanders
July 15th 03, 08:27 AM
al > wrote in message >...
> One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to make permanent
> plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the shiny metal
> side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work... erm
> how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?)

Make a map of the garden if you need to know what is planted where. I
have hundreds of plants on an acre of gardens and no labels. I am
fortunate that I can identify and remember the name of plants. Draw
the trees and shrubs and a border of the garden and any perennials,
then laminate it, and use a china marker to put in the annuals. End
of the season, you can wipe it clean and plan next years planting.

Cheers,

Ned

Ned Flanders
July 15th 03, 08:27 AM
al > wrote in message >...
> One of my gardening books suggests using old aluminium cans to make permanent
> plant labels. I assume you scratch the plant name onto the shiny metal
> side of the aluminium foil. Excuse my ignorance, but does this work... erm
> how long do they last ? (Does the metal colourize over time ?)

Make a map of the garden if you need to know what is planted where. I
have hundreds of plants on an acre of gardens and no labels. I am
fortunate that I can identify and remember the name of plants. Draw
the trees and shrubs and a border of the garden and any perennials,
then laminate it, and use a china marker to put in the annuals. End
of the season, you can wipe it clean and plan next years planting.

Cheers,

Ned

animaux
July 15th 03, 02:47 PM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:00:44 -0400, "Don K" > wrote:


>Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
>is man-made.

That's correct, but I no longer buy soda in cans for my husband. I only buy
plastic bottles and they all go to the recycle municipality in our city. There
was a report, and I don't remember where, but I do recall it was credible that
there is a lot of aluminum found in the soda they house. I never bought another
can and only used frozen vegetables unless they come from my soil.


>What credible authority recommends that? NIH doesn't.
>
>http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/alum.htm

Very true, but my guess is the cans we find soda in are not pure aluminum, but
some sort of alloy primarily made up of aluminum. I also use parchment paper to
cover oven cooked meals and put the aluminum over the paper so not to touch the
food.

It may all be silly and a part of the grand fear machine in the U.S. Who knows.

>Considering that the earth is 8.1% aluminum, I'd say it would be
>entirely fitting to have some aluminum in the garden.
>
>Don

I-did-not-know-that!

V

animaux
July 15th 03, 02:47 PM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:00:44 -0400, "Don K" > wrote:


>Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
>is man-made.

That's correct, but I no longer buy soda in cans for my husband. I only buy
plastic bottles and they all go to the recycle municipality in our city. There
was a report, and I don't remember where, but I do recall it was credible that
there is a lot of aluminum found in the soda they house. I never bought another
can and only used frozen vegetables unless they come from my soil.


>What credible authority recommends that? NIH doesn't.
>
>http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/alum.htm

Very true, but my guess is the cans we find soda in are not pure aluminum, but
some sort of alloy primarily made up of aluminum. I also use parchment paper to
cover oven cooked meals and put the aluminum over the paper so not to touch the
food.

It may all be silly and a part of the grand fear machine in the U.S. Who knows.

>Considering that the earth is 8.1% aluminum, I'd say it would be
>entirely fitting to have some aluminum in the garden.
>
>Don

I-did-not-know-that!

V

David Hill
July 15th 03, 03:34 PM
Nice smooth stones with the plant name painted on looks great. Something to
do in the winter.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

David Hill
July 15th 03, 03:34 PM
Nice smooth stones with the plant name painted on looks great. Something to
do in the winter.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

Don K
July 16th 03, 01:49 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Don K"
> > wrote:
> > > Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> > > development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science
Digest
> > > did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> > > researchers thought it much likely.
> >
> > Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
> > is man-made.
>
> Pure aluminum does not exist in nature, & its existence was not even known
> until 1808, & it was another 80 years before it could be extracted
> affordably from boxite & alumina. Boxite is found just about everywhere in
> nature; aluminum per se is not. When metalurgists first learned to purify
> aluminum from boxite, it cost more per ounce than gold. Nowadays it costs
> us here in the Northwest our salmon resources, there being no more salmon
> runs at all in rivers & streams near aluminum plants.

Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.

A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of chemical
processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's no
alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
in other compounds.

Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.

Don

Don K
July 16th 03, 01:49 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Don K"
> > wrote:
> > > Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> > > development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science
Digest
> > > did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> > > researchers thought it much likely.
> >
> > Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
> > is man-made.
>
> Pure aluminum does not exist in nature, & its existence was not even known
> until 1808, & it was another 80 years before it could be extracted
> affordably from boxite & alumina. Boxite is found just about everywhere in
> nature; aluminum per se is not. When metalurgists first learned to purify
> aluminum from boxite, it cost more per ounce than gold. Nowadays it costs
> us here in the Northwest our salmon resources, there being no more salmon
> runs at all in rivers & streams near aluminum plants.

Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.

A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of chemical
processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's no
alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
in other compounds.

Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.

Don

paghat
July 16th 03, 02:26 AM
In article >, "Don K"
> wrote:

> "paghat" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Don K"
> > > wrote:
> > > > Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> > > > development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science
> Digest
> > > > did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> > > > researchers thought it much likely.
> > >
> > > Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
> > > is man-made.
> >
> > Pure aluminum does not exist in nature, & its existence was not even known
> > until 1808, & it was another 80 years before it could be extracted
> > affordably from boxite & alumina. Boxite is found just about everywhere in
> > nature; aluminum per se is not. When metalurgists first learned to purify
> > aluminum from boxite, it cost more per ounce than gold. Nowadays it costs
> > us here in the Northwest our salmon resources, there being no more salmon
> > runs at all in rivers & streams near aluminum plants.
>
> Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.
>
> A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of chemical
> processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's no
> alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
> in other compounds.
>
> Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
>
> Don

Never heard about gold being toxic -- I guess I better not bury my great
horde of dubloons in the garden -- but I've seen piles of extremely toxic
rubble left over from gold mining.

I still sorta feel there's a difference between gold which DOES exist in a
pure state naturally (in addition to dissolved state in the ocean & finely
powdered in some environments, & aluminum which as an ore is bauxite of
quite a different character altogether. If pure god did NOT exist in
nature until purified by human hands, I would regard it as man-made, yes,
just as the transuranic elements can mainly only be brought about by the
activity of scientists. But anyway, my only point was that the aluminum
deposits in alzheimer-sufferers' brains is the stuff people purify, rather
than resembling the ore that exists in dusty aspect in everyone's gardens.
So either the brain's electrical charges must manufacturer it from the
environment, or what SEEMS more likely, our daily exposure to created
aluminum is making some of us stupider than we used to be. Here's a web
article about the bits I worry about (from a school of biology p.o.v.
rather than my ecology worry-wart p.o.v.):
http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/bbb.html

-paghat

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
July 16th 03, 02:26 AM
In article >, "Don K"
> wrote:

> "paghat" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Don K"
> > > wrote:
> > > > Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> > > > development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science
> Digest
> > > > did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> > > > researchers thought it much likely.
> > >
> > > Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
> > > is man-made.
> >
> > Pure aluminum does not exist in nature, & its existence was not even known
> > until 1808, & it was another 80 years before it could be extracted
> > affordably from boxite & alumina. Boxite is found just about everywhere in
> > nature; aluminum per se is not. When metalurgists first learned to purify
> > aluminum from boxite, it cost more per ounce than gold. Nowadays it costs
> > us here in the Northwest our salmon resources, there being no more salmon
> > runs at all in rivers & streams near aluminum plants.
>
> Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.
>
> A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of chemical
> processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's no
> alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
> in other compounds.
>
> Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
>
> Don

Never heard about gold being toxic -- I guess I better not bury my great
horde of dubloons in the garden -- but I've seen piles of extremely toxic
rubble left over from gold mining.

I still sorta feel there's a difference between gold which DOES exist in a
pure state naturally (in addition to dissolved state in the ocean & finely
powdered in some environments, & aluminum which as an ore is bauxite of
quite a different character altogether. If pure god did NOT exist in
nature until purified by human hands, I would regard it as man-made, yes,
just as the transuranic elements can mainly only be brought about by the
activity of scientists. But anyway, my only point was that the aluminum
deposits in alzheimer-sufferers' brains is the stuff people purify, rather
than resembling the ore that exists in dusty aspect in everyone's gardens.
So either the brain's electrical charges must manufacturer it from the
environment, or what SEEMS more likely, our daily exposure to created
aluminum is making some of us stupider than we used to be. Here's a web
article about the bits I worry about (from a school of biology p.o.v.
rather than my ecology worry-wart p.o.v.):
http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/bbb.html

-paghat

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Salty Thumb
July 16th 03, 02:59 AM
"Don K" > wrote in
:

> Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.
>
> A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of
> chemical processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's
> no alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
> in other compounds.

The difference is refined or man-made gold is more or less
indistinguishible from naturally occuring pure gold (and nobody's saying
gold isn't found in ore, although I question, historically, how gold has
been recovered by refining from ores vs. how much was just laying around,
more or less pure), whereas you just don't find sheets of aluminum or
aluminum oxide lying around. Well, you might if you live in a junky
neighborhood, but you still know it's in an unnatural state.

> Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.

I can see how that could be a problem if you go around looking like Mr. T
or have some Trumpesqe fascination with gilding things like spoons, forks
and cups. But unless you're eating gold flakes for breakfast, it's still
not quite the same.

Drinking too much water *can* be toxic, but nobody's saying stop drinking
water.

- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 16th 03, 02:59 AM
"Don K" > wrote in
:

> Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.
>
> A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of
> chemical processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's
> no alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
> in other compounds.

The difference is refined or man-made gold is more or less
indistinguishible from naturally occuring pure gold (and nobody's saying
gold isn't found in ore, although I question, historically, how gold has
been recovered by refining from ores vs. how much was just laying around,
more or less pure), whereas you just don't find sheets of aluminum or
aluminum oxide lying around. Well, you might if you live in a junky
neighborhood, but you still know it's in an unnatural state.

> Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.

I can see how that could be a problem if you go around looking like Mr. T
or have some Trumpesqe fascination with gilding things like spoons, forks
and cups. But unless you're eating gold flakes for breakfast, it's still
not quite the same.

Drinking too much water *can* be toxic, but nobody's saying stop drinking
water.

- Salty

Franz Heymann
July 16th 03, 08:54 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Don K"
> > wrote:
>
> > "paghat" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, "Don K"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> > > > > development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science
> > Digest
> > > > > did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> > > > > researchers thought it much likely.
> > > >
> > > > Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
> > > > is man-made.
> > >
> > > Pure aluminum does not exist in nature, & its existence was not even
known
> > > until 1808, & it was another 80 years before it could be extracted
> > > affordably from boxite & alumina. Boxite is found just about
everywhere in
> > > nature; aluminum per se is not. When metalurgists first learned to
purify
> > > aluminum from boxite, it cost more per ounce than gold. Nowadays it
costs
> > > us here in the Northwest our salmon resources, there being no more
salmon
> > > runs at all in rivers & streams near aluminum plants.
> >
> > Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.
> >
> > A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of
chemical
> > processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's no
> > alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
> > in other compounds.
> >
> > Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> > should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
> >
> > Don
>
> Never heard about gold being toxic -- I guess I better not bury my great
> horde of dubloons in the garden -- but I've seen piles of extremely toxic
> rubble left over from gold mining.
>
> I still sorta feel there's a difference between gold which DOES exist in a
> pure state naturally (in addition to dissolved state in the ocean & finely
> powdered in some environments, & aluminum which as an ore is bauxite of
> quite a different character altogether. If pure god did NOT exist in
> nature until purified by human hands, I would regard it as man-made, yes,
> just as the transuranic elements can mainly only be brought about by the
> activity of scientists. But anyway, my only point was that the aluminum
> deposits in alzheimer-sufferers' brains is the stuff people purify, rather
> than resembling the ore that exists in dusty aspect in everyone's gardens.
> So either the brain's electrical charges must manufacturer it from the
> environment, or what SEEMS more likely, our daily exposure to created
> aluminum is making some of us stupider than we used to be. Here's a web
> article about the bits I worry about (from a school of biology p.o.v.
> rather than my ecology worry-wart p.o.v.):
> http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/bbb.html
>

By your reckoning practically all metals are man-made, as is concrete. I
find it hard to think of anything other than wood which would by your
standards be "natutal"

Franz Heymann

Franz Heymann
July 16th 03, 08:54 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Don K"
> > wrote:
>
> > "paghat" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, "Don K"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Man-made aluminum & aluminates MIGHT have some involvement in the
> > > > > development of alzheimers disease, though years back when Science
> > Digest
> > > > > did a whole issue about it, looked like only about one out of ten
> > > > > researchers thought it much likely.
> > > >
> > > > Aluminum is an element and strictly speaking, is not something that
> > > > is man-made.
> > >
> > > Pure aluminum does not exist in nature, & its existence was not even
known
> > > until 1808, & it was another 80 years before it could be extracted
> > > affordably from boxite & alumina. Boxite is found just about
everywhere in
> > > nature; aluminum per se is not. When metalurgists first learned to
purify
> > > aluminum from boxite, it cost more per ounce than gold. Nowadays it
costs
> > > us here in the Northwest our salmon resources, there being no more
salmon
> > > runs at all in rivers & streams near aluminum plants.
> >
> > Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.
> >
> > A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of
chemical
> > processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's no
> > alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
> > in other compounds.
> >
> > Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> > should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
> >
> > Don
>
> Never heard about gold being toxic -- I guess I better not bury my great
> horde of dubloons in the garden -- but I've seen piles of extremely toxic
> rubble left over from gold mining.
>
> I still sorta feel there's a difference between gold which DOES exist in a
> pure state naturally (in addition to dissolved state in the ocean & finely
> powdered in some environments, & aluminum which as an ore is bauxite of
> quite a different character altogether. If pure god did NOT exist in
> nature until purified by human hands, I would regard it as man-made, yes,
> just as the transuranic elements can mainly only be brought about by the
> activity of scientists. But anyway, my only point was that the aluminum
> deposits in alzheimer-sufferers' brains is the stuff people purify, rather
> than resembling the ore that exists in dusty aspect in everyone's gardens.
> So either the brain's electrical charges must manufacturer it from the
> environment, or what SEEMS more likely, our daily exposure to created
> aluminum is making some of us stupider than we used to be. Here's a web
> article about the bits I worry about (from a school of biology p.o.v.
> rather than my ecology worry-wart p.o.v.):
> http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/bbb.html
>

By your reckoning practically all metals are man-made, as is concrete. I
find it hard to think of anything other than wood which would by your
standards be "natutal"

Franz Heymann

Franz Heymann
July 16th 03, 11:51 AM
"Salty Thumb" > wrote in message
...
> "Don K" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.
> >
> > A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of
> > chemical processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's
> > no alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
> > in other compounds.
>
> The difference is refined or man-made gold is more or less
> indistinguishible from naturally occuring pure gold (and nobody's saying
> gold isn't found in ore,

There are no such things as gold ores to my knowledge. Gold is an almost
inert element. As far as I know, gold is always found as a simple metal.

> although I question, historically, how gold has
> been recovered by refining from ores vs. how much was just laying around,
> more or less pure), whereas you just don't find sheets of aluminum or
> aluminum oxide lying around. Well, you might if you live in a junky
> neighborhood, but you still know it's in an unnatural state.
>
> > Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> > should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
>
> I can see how that could be a problem if you go around looking like Mr. T
> or have some Trumpesqe fascination with gilding things like spoons, forks
> and cups. But unless you're eating gold flakes for breakfast, it's still
> not quite the same.
>
> Drinking too much water *can* be toxic, but nobody's saying stop drinking
> water.
>
Franz Heymann

Franz Heymann
July 16th 03, 11:51 AM
"Salty Thumb" > wrote in message
...
> "Don K" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Most mining involves dealing with nasty by-products.
> >
> > A lot of gold is also obtained by refining ore thru all sorts of
> > chemical processes. Yet we don't refer to it as man-made gold. There's
> > no alchemy involved. It's just recovering the gold that is locked up
> > in other compounds.
>
> The difference is refined or man-made gold is more or less
> indistinguishible from naturally occuring pure gold (and nobody's saying
> gold isn't found in ore,

There are no such things as gold ores to my knowledge. Gold is an almost
inert element. As far as I know, gold is always found as a simple metal.

> although I question, historically, how gold has
> been recovered by refining from ores vs. how much was just laying around,
> more or less pure), whereas you just don't find sheets of aluminum or
> aluminum oxide lying around. Well, you might if you live in a junky
> neighborhood, but you still know it's in an unnatural state.
>
> > Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> > should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
>
> I can see how that could be a problem if you go around looking like Mr. T
> or have some Trumpesqe fascination with gilding things like spoons, forks
> and cups. But unless you're eating gold flakes for breakfast, it's still
> not quite the same.
>
> Drinking too much water *can* be toxic, but nobody's saying stop drinking
> water.
>
Franz Heymann

Salty Thumb
July 16th 03, 01:36 PM
"Franz Heymann" > wrote in
:

> There are no such things as gold ores to my knowledge. Gold is an
> almost inert element. As far as I know, gold is always found as a
> simple metal.

Gold has low reactivity, but isn't near as unreactive as the 'noble gases'
(but I hear you can even make compounds with one of the heavier elements,
Xenon?) . The one thing I remember is telluride ore, I'm not sure if that
means tellurium or rare earth elements in general. I also don't know if
it's chemically or merely mechanically bound.

-- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 16th 03, 01:36 PM
"Franz Heymann" > wrote in
:

> There are no such things as gold ores to my knowledge. Gold is an
> almost inert element. As far as I know, gold is always found as a
> simple metal.

Gold has low reactivity, but isn't near as unreactive as the 'noble gases'
(but I hear you can even make compounds with one of the heavier elements,
Xenon?) . The one thing I remember is telluride ore, I'm not sure if that
means tellurium or rare earth elements in general. I also don't know if
it's chemically or merely mechanically bound.

-- Salty

Ned Flanders
July 16th 03, 05:16 PM
> Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
>
> Don

It's compounds are, but gold worn as jewelry or eaten on desserts or
drunk in liquor are for the most part inert and not readily absorbed
by the body therefore not a concern.

Cheers,

Ned

Ned Flanders
July 16th 03, 05:16 PM
> Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
>
> Don

It's compounds are, but gold worn as jewelry or eaten on desserts or
drunk in liquor are for the most part inert and not readily absorbed
by the body therefore not a concern.

Cheers,

Ned

madgardener
July 16th 03, 08:27 PM
oh hail the new Martha Stewart of gardening gitch!!! Dang girl, are you ever
crafty today!! I read your idea's and got a well needed laugh. You been
smoking the old cranium herb?? <GBSEG> those are great ideas, but tedioius
woman!! as for a good source for lables, there are plenty of greenhouse
suppliers willing to sell lables..........wonder why we can't just use the
lables that come in the plants and maybe seal them with laminated plastic
and mount onto something? dowels painted in polyurathane comes to
mind.........................madgardener off to rest with pulled
shoulder/rotor muscle now...............
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
wrote:
>
> > Dwight Sipler > wrote:
> >
> > >The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
> > >bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.
> >
> > I think cutting up a bleach jug and using a permanent marker might be a
better
> > idea. No sharp edges and the plastic lasts a long time. Could be a use
for
> > old floppies too. Thread a wire or string through the hole and write on
the
> > floppy with a marker.
>
> I'm picturing a garden decorated with cut-up Budweisser cans & Clorox
bottles.
>
> How 'bout making an elaborate paper collage with the name of each plant
> somewhere on the collage, imbed the collage in a block of fiberglass
> resin, mount the block of resin on a three foot length of rebar, & pound
> these in the ground in front of each plant.
>
> OR, buy a kiln to manufacture your own bathroom tiles but adapted as
> garden tiles, each tile glazed with naive images of flowers, & the name of
> the plant, & these would be strewn about in the garden in from of each
> plant.
>
> OR, with copper wire & the tiniest glass beads, use needlenosed pliars to
> shape a length of beaded wire into the name of the plant. Nail this to the

> top edge of a one-foot-long chunk of two-by-four & cement the other end of
> the 2x4 into the ground near the labeled plant.
>
> OR, with a woodburning kit make Buddhist gravemarkers our of slats, with
> the names of flowers instead of the dead burnt right into the slats. If
> you're worried the wooden slats will rot in a few years, then get plastic
> toy airplanes in all sorts of colors, & use the woodburning kit to melt in
> the names of the plants on the wings of the airplanes & hang them from the
> appropriate plants.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl
>
> --
> "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
> "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
> -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
> See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

madgardener
July 16th 03, 08:27 PM
oh hail the new Martha Stewart of gardening gitch!!! Dang girl, are you ever
crafty today!! I read your idea's and got a well needed laugh. You been
smoking the old cranium herb?? <GBSEG> those are great ideas, but tedioius
woman!! as for a good source for lables, there are plenty of greenhouse
suppliers willing to sell lables..........wonder why we can't just use the
lables that come in the plants and maybe seal them with laminated plastic
and mount onto something? dowels painted in polyurathane comes to
mind.........................madgardener off to rest with pulled
shoulder/rotor muscle now...............
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
wrote:
>
> > Dwight Sipler > wrote:
> >
> > >The strips of aluminum can will have sharp edges, so you might want to
> > >bend them over to avoid hazards to small children and pets.
> >
> > I think cutting up a bleach jug and using a permanent marker might be a
better
> > idea. No sharp edges and the plastic lasts a long time. Could be a use
for
> > old floppies too. Thread a wire or string through the hole and write on
the
> > floppy with a marker.
>
> I'm picturing a garden decorated with cut-up Budweisser cans & Clorox
bottles.
>
> How 'bout making an elaborate paper collage with the name of each plant
> somewhere on the collage, imbed the collage in a block of fiberglass
> resin, mount the block of resin on a three foot length of rebar, & pound
> these in the ground in front of each plant.
>
> OR, buy a kiln to manufacture your own bathroom tiles but adapted as
> garden tiles, each tile glazed with naive images of flowers, & the name of
> the plant, & these would be strewn about in the garden in from of each
> plant.
>
> OR, with copper wire & the tiniest glass beads, use needlenosed pliars to
> shape a length of beaded wire into the name of the plant. Nail this to the

> top edge of a one-foot-long chunk of two-by-four & cement the other end of
> the 2x4 into the ground near the labeled plant.
>
> OR, with a woodburning kit make Buddhist gravemarkers our of slats, with
> the names of flowers instead of the dead burnt right into the slats. If
> you're worried the wooden slats will rot in a few years, then get plastic
> toy airplanes in all sorts of colors, & use the woodburning kit to melt in
> the names of the plants on the wings of the airplanes & hang them from the
> appropriate plants.
>
> -paghat the ratgirl
>
> --
> "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
> "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
> -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
> See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Dwight Sipler
July 16th 03, 09:01 PM
Lots of label ideas out there. I've probably missed a few, but the
painted rock sounds best to me. Available materials, simple to make,
non-toxic (depending on the paint) and fairly permanent.

Dwight Sipler
July 16th 03, 09:01 PM
Lots of label ideas out there. I've probably missed a few, but the
painted rock sounds best to me. Available materials, simple to make,
non-toxic (depending on the paint) and fairly permanent.

Salty Thumb
July 16th 03, 09:20 PM
(Ned Flanders) wrote in
om:

>> There are no such things as gold ores to my knowledge.
>
> Sure there is, Calaverite, Chalcocite, Bornite,
> Chalcopyrite and enargite, are a few....

According to top yahoo hits, the only mineral listed above that contains
gold is calaverite (gold telluride), the other four are "ores" of copper
(chalcos being Greek for copper). But of course, if you're willing to
trade some of your gold nuggets for my copper pans, you've got a deal. :-)

>>Gold is an almost inert element.
>
>>As far as I know, gold is always found as a simple metal.
>
> No. That would be native gold--which is rare. Most gold is in ores.

- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 16th 03, 09:20 PM
(Ned Flanders) wrote in
om:

>> There are no such things as gold ores to my knowledge.
>
> Sure there is, Calaverite, Chalcocite, Bornite,
> Chalcopyrite and enargite, are a few....

According to top yahoo hits, the only mineral listed above that contains
gold is calaverite (gold telluride), the other four are "ores" of copper
(chalcos being Greek for copper). But of course, if you're willing to
trade some of your gold nuggets for my copper pans, you've got a deal. :-)

>>Gold is an almost inert element.
>
>>As far as I know, gold is always found as a simple metal.
>
> No. That would be native gold--which is rare. Most gold is in ores.

- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 16th 03, 10:47 PM
"Franz Heymann" > wrote in
:


> That is incorrect. 95% of the gold mined in the world occurs as
> native gold, or as gold-silver alloys (or simple mechanical mixtures.
> I am not quite certain). The only gold ore of any significance id
> Calaverite, which is gold telluride, which is mined in quantities
> which are small compared to the native gold mined in South Africa.
>
> The other minerals you quote do not contain any gold in their chemical
> compositions.

Here's a site that agrees with us:
http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/elements/gold/gold.htm

"There are very few true gold ores, besides native gold, because it forms a
major part of only a few rare minerals, it is found as little more than a
trace in a few others or it is alloyed to a small extent with other metals
such as silver. "

and

"A few of the tellurides are nagyagite, calaverite, sylvanite and
krennerite. These are all minor ores of gold but their contributions to the
supply of gold pales next to native gold's own contribution. "

-- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 16th 03, 10:47 PM
"Franz Heymann" > wrote in
:


> That is incorrect. 95% of the gold mined in the world occurs as
> native gold, or as gold-silver alloys (or simple mechanical mixtures.
> I am not quite certain). The only gold ore of any significance id
> Calaverite, which is gold telluride, which is mined in quantities
> which are small compared to the native gold mined in South Africa.
>
> The other minerals you quote do not contain any gold in their chemical
> compositions.

Here's a site that agrees with us:
http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/elements/gold/gold.htm

"There are very few true gold ores, besides native gold, because it forms a
major part of only a few rare minerals, it is found as little more than a
trace in a few others or it is alloyed to a small extent with other metals
such as silver. "

and

"A few of the tellurides are nagyagite, calaverite, sylvanite and
krennerite. These are all minor ores of gold but their contributions to the
supply of gold pales next to native gold's own contribution. "

-- Salty

paghat
July 16th 03, 10:51 PM
In article >, Dwight Sipler
> wrote:

> Lots of label ideas out there. I've probably missed a few, but the
> painted rock sounds best to me. Available materials, simple to make,
> non-toxic (depending on the paint) and fairly permanent.

You can also get a mess of rocks about the size of your head and line them
up along the driveway & paint them in all sorts of bright colors! But to
be subtle, paint every other one white, the rest yellow, using that
rubberized paint that's for highway centerlines, it lasts quite a while.
If the yellow & white painted rocks clash with the house, repaint the
house schoolbus yellow.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
July 16th 03, 10:51 PM
In article >, Dwight Sipler
> wrote:

> Lots of label ideas out there. I've probably missed a few, but the
> painted rock sounds best to me. Available materials, simple to make,
> non-toxic (depending on the paint) and fairly permanent.

You can also get a mess of rocks about the size of your head and line them
up along the driveway & paint them in all sorts of bright colors! But to
be subtle, paint every other one white, the rest yellow, using that
rubberized paint that's for highway centerlines, it lasts quite a while.
If the yellow & white painted rocks clash with the house, repaint the
house schoolbus yellow.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

David Hill
July 16th 03, 11:30 PM
What is the relevance of gold mining to Plant labels????????
I can see a gold mine would help to buy all the plants we would like to
have.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

David Hill
July 16th 03, 11:30 PM
What is the relevance of gold mining to Plant labels????????
I can see a gold mine would help to buy all the plants we would like to
have.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

Salty Thumb
July 17th 03, 12:09 AM
"David Hill" > wrote in news:bf4g4c
:

> What is the relevance of gold mining to Plant labels????????
> I can see a gold mine would help to buy all the plants we would like to
> have.
>

sorry, I should have modified the subject line earlier

here's an idea from NutGen:

self labeling tomato plants - as a tomato plant grows, the name and
cultivar gradually appears on the stem. Currently, the names are only
available in Italian, but English versions should be available 2Q 2005.

and here's a martha stewarty idea:

take a picture of a plant or pluck off a leaf
dry it in isopropyl alcohol (if using a leaf) or otherwise dessicate
write name on picture (if using picture)
laminate the sucker or intomb in polyurethane.
scratch name into polyurethane (if using leaf)
rub some native gold into the scratched name
add a couple more layers of poly for good measure
put outside next to plant

Salty Thumb
July 17th 03, 12:09 AM
"David Hill" > wrote in news:bf4g4c
:

> What is the relevance of gold mining to Plant labels????????
> I can see a gold mine would help to buy all the plants we would like to
> have.
>

sorry, I should have modified the subject line earlier

here's an idea from NutGen:

self labeling tomato plants - as a tomato plant grows, the name and
cultivar gradually appears on the stem. Currently, the names are only
available in Italian, but English versions should be available 2Q 2005.

and here's a martha stewarty idea:

take a picture of a plant or pluck off a leaf
dry it in isopropyl alcohol (if using a leaf) or otherwise dessicate
write name on picture (if using picture)
laminate the sucker or intomb in polyurethane.
scratch name into polyurethane (if using leaf)
rub some native gold into the scratched name
add a couple more layers of poly for good measure
put outside next to plant

Don K
July 17th 03, 12:16 AM
"Ned Flanders" > wrote in message
om...
> > Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> > should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
> >
> > Don
>
> It's compounds are, but gold worn as jewelry or eaten on desserts or
> drunk in liquor are for the most part inert and not readily absorbed
> by the body therefore not a concern.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ned

Gold is not absorbed well by the body and its compounds are not
normally particularly toxic. Up to 50% of arthritic patients treated
with gold-containing drugs may show toxic effects however
resulting in damage to the liver and to the kidneys.
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Au/biol.html

I was being sarcastic. I'm not concerned about the toxicity
of aluminum or gold and I'm not going to avoid either one
just because someone comes up with an inconclusive factoid
that it may be toxic.

If the scientific or medical community ever makes a judgment
that these metals should be avoided, then I will listen. Until
then, it's just another crackpot idea for alarmists to get
themselves worked up over.

Don

Don K
July 17th 03, 12:16 AM
"Ned Flanders" > wrote in message
om...
> > Gold can be toxic to the liver and kidneys. Perhaps a prudent person
> > should stop wearing man-made gold while avoiding aluminum.
> >
> > Don
>
> It's compounds are, but gold worn as jewelry or eaten on desserts or
> drunk in liquor are for the most part inert and not readily absorbed
> by the body therefore not a concern.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ned

Gold is not absorbed well by the body and its compounds are not
normally particularly toxic. Up to 50% of arthritic patients treated
with gold-containing drugs may show toxic effects however
resulting in damage to the liver and to the kidneys.
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Au/biol.html

I was being sarcastic. I'm not concerned about the toxicity
of aluminum or gold and I'm not going to avoid either one
just because someone comes up with an inconclusive factoid
that it may be toxic.

If the scientific or medical community ever makes a judgment
that these metals should be avoided, then I will listen. Until
then, it's just another crackpot idea for alarmists to get
themselves worked up over.

Don

Salty Thumb
July 17th 03, 01:12 AM
"Don K" > wrote in
:

> I was being sarcastic. I'm not concerned about the toxicity
> of aluminum or gold and I'm not going to avoid either one
> just because someone comes up with an inconclusive factoid
> that it may be toxic.
>
> If the scientific or medical community ever makes a judgment
> that these metals should be avoided, then I will listen. Until
> then, it's just another crackpot idea for alarmists to get
> themselves worked up over.

That's very well and good for yourself, but I'm glad people here are
willing to bring up "crackpot" ideas. I for one didn't know about the
possible detriments of plastic soda pop bottles and I'm glad I can make my
own decisions regarding consumption without relying on the "scientific or
medical" communities' opinion. I wonder if those people have decided if
smoking causes cancer or not yet. Are eggs good or bad for you? etc etc

Your car has a seat belt, it should be up to you and nobody else whether
you use it or not. You want to take the risk of not wearing it, that's
fine. Probably nothing's going to happen, but if something does, well, tsk
tsk.

-- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 17th 03, 01:12 AM
"Don K" > wrote in
:

> I was being sarcastic. I'm not concerned about the toxicity
> of aluminum or gold and I'm not going to avoid either one
> just because someone comes up with an inconclusive factoid
> that it may be toxic.
>
> If the scientific or medical community ever makes a judgment
> that these metals should be avoided, then I will listen. Until
> then, it's just another crackpot idea for alarmists to get
> themselves worked up over.

That's very well and good for yourself, but I'm glad people here are
willing to bring up "crackpot" ideas. I for one didn't know about the
possible detriments of plastic soda pop bottles and I'm glad I can make my
own decisions regarding consumption without relying on the "scientific or
medical" communities' opinion. I wonder if those people have decided if
smoking causes cancer or not yet. Are eggs good or bad for you? etc etc

Your car has a seat belt, it should be up to you and nobody else whether
you use it or not. You want to take the risk of not wearing it, that's
fine. Probably nothing's going to happen, but if something does, well, tsk
tsk.

-- Salty

Don K
July 17th 03, 03:24 AM
"Salty Thumb" > wrote in message
...
> "Don K" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I was being sarcastic. I'm not concerned about the toxicity
> > of aluminum or gold and I'm not going to avoid either one
> > just because someone comes up with an inconclusive factoid
> > that it may be toxic.
> >
> > If the scientific or medical community ever makes a judgment
> > that these metals should be avoided, then I will listen. Until
> > then, it's just another crackpot idea for alarmists to get
> > themselves worked up over.
>
> That's very well and good for yourself, but I'm glad people here are
> willing to bring up "crackpot" ideas. I for one didn't know about the
> possible detriments of plastic soda pop bottles and I'm glad I can make my
> own decisions regarding consumption without relying on the "scientific or
> medical" communities' opinion. I wonder if those people have decided if
> smoking causes cancer or not yet. Are eggs good or bad for you? etc etc

I, too, like to make my own decisions.
The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".

Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

> Your car has a seat belt, it should be up to you and nobody else whether
> you use it or not. You want to take the risk of not wearing it, that's
> fine. Probably nothing's going to happen, but if something does, well,
tsk
> tsk.

All reputable safety organizations recognize that seatbelts and similar
safety devices save lives and they generally recommend their use.
I concur, so I take that advice.

On the other hand, some people feel that if you step on a crack,
it breaks your mother's back. I don't feel that's been scientifically
proven, so I ignore that advice.

Don

Don K
July 17th 03, 03:24 AM
"Salty Thumb" > wrote in message
...
> "Don K" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I was being sarcastic. I'm not concerned about the toxicity
> > of aluminum or gold and I'm not going to avoid either one
> > just because someone comes up with an inconclusive factoid
> > that it may be toxic.
> >
> > If the scientific or medical community ever makes a judgment
> > that these metals should be avoided, then I will listen. Until
> > then, it's just another crackpot idea for alarmists to get
> > themselves worked up over.
>
> That's very well and good for yourself, but I'm glad people here are
> willing to bring up "crackpot" ideas. I for one didn't know about the
> possible detriments of plastic soda pop bottles and I'm glad I can make my
> own decisions regarding consumption without relying on the "scientific or
> medical" communities' opinion. I wonder if those people have decided if
> smoking causes cancer or not yet. Are eggs good or bad for you? etc etc

I, too, like to make my own decisions.
The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".

Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

> Your car has a seat belt, it should be up to you and nobody else whether
> you use it or not. You want to take the risk of not wearing it, that's
> fine. Probably nothing's going to happen, but if something does, well,
tsk
> tsk.

All reputable safety organizations recognize that seatbelts and similar
safety devices save lives and they generally recommend their use.
I concur, so I take that advice.

On the other hand, some people feel that if you step on a crack,
it breaks your mother's back. I don't feel that's been scientifically
proven, so I ignore that advice.

Don

Ned Flanders
July 17th 03, 05:13 AM
"Franz Heymann" > wrote in message >...
> "Ned Flanders" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > There are no such things as gold ores to my knowledge.
> >
> > Sure there is, Calaverite, Chalcocite, Bornite,
> > Chalcopyrite and enargite, are a few....
> >
> > >Gold is an almost inert element.
>
> > >As far as I know, gold is always found as a simple metal.
> >
> > No. That would be native gold--which is rare. Most gold is in ores.
>
> That is incorrect.
How so? I do not consider gold that cannot be seen even under
magnification, that is locked up in other minerals to be native
gold--hence the list of known ores.

95% of the gold mined in the world occurs as native
> gold, or as gold-silver alloys (or simple mechanical mixtures. I am not
> quite certain).

What? why not 100%? You cite ALL of the places where gold IS. The
minerals I listed ARE ores and they fall under mechanical mixtures
which you cite as being part of your 95% of mined gold.

The only gold ore of any significance id Calaverite, which
> is gold telluride, which is mined in quantities which are small compared to
> the native gold mined in South Africa.
>
> The other minerals you quote do not contain any gold in their chemical
> compositions.

But the gold is a prisoner of some formations of the minerals I listed
which than makes them gold ores. Mind you it's not in all of the
formations, so a large concentration of the minerals can differ which
is why you have copper mines, gold mines, and silver mines. But it
may be that the miners are working the same minerals in each mine with
a different end product in mind. Here in Pennsylvania, the largest
gold production was from the Cornwall Iron mine, which is the longest
running iron mine in this country 1742-1972. Along with Magnetite,
Iron Pyrite, and Chalcopyrite was mined. And at the French Creek
Mine, some fifty miles away, the same minerals were mined, first for
iron production, than as a copper mine. However, the Chalcopyrite,
Iron Pyrite, and Magnetite were not auriferous, therefore there was no
gold mined at the French Creek Mine.

Cheers,

Ned

Ned Flanders
July 17th 03, 05:13 AM
"Franz Heymann" > wrote in message >...
> "Ned Flanders" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > There are no such things as gold ores to my knowledge.
> >
> > Sure there is, Calaverite, Chalcocite, Bornite,
> > Chalcopyrite and enargite, are a few....
> >
> > >Gold is an almost inert element.
>
> > >As far as I know, gold is always found as a simple metal.
> >
> > No. That would be native gold--which is rare. Most gold is in ores.
>
> That is incorrect.
How so? I do not consider gold that cannot be seen even under
magnification, that is locked up in other minerals to be native
gold--hence the list of known ores.

95% of the gold mined in the world occurs as native
> gold, or as gold-silver alloys (or simple mechanical mixtures. I am not
> quite certain).

What? why not 100%? You cite ALL of the places where gold IS. The
minerals I listed ARE ores and they fall under mechanical mixtures
which you cite as being part of your 95% of mined gold.

The only gold ore of any significance id Calaverite, which
> is gold telluride, which is mined in quantities which are small compared to
> the native gold mined in South Africa.
>
> The other minerals you quote do not contain any gold in their chemical
> compositions.

But the gold is a prisoner of some formations of the minerals I listed
which than makes them gold ores. Mind you it's not in all of the
formations, so a large concentration of the minerals can differ which
is why you have copper mines, gold mines, and silver mines. But it
may be that the miners are working the same minerals in each mine with
a different end product in mind. Here in Pennsylvania, the largest
gold production was from the Cornwall Iron mine, which is the longest
running iron mine in this country 1742-1972. Along with Magnetite,
Iron Pyrite, and Chalcopyrite was mined. And at the French Creek
Mine, some fifty miles away, the same minerals were mined, first for
iron production, than as a copper mine. However, the Chalcopyrite,
Iron Pyrite, and Magnetite were not auriferous, therefore there was no
gold mined at the French Creek Mine.

Cheers,

Ned

paghat
July 17th 03, 05:56 PM
In article >, "Don K"
> wrote:
>
> I, too, like to make my own decisions.
> The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
> kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
> Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
> the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.
Not paranoid according to gerontologist William Forbes of the University
of Waterloo whose 1995 study showed that a population exposed to aluminum
in their diet for 35 years had impaired mental functions 10 times higher
than in areas without the exposure (in this case it was a water treatment
method that included aluminum & ended up delivering trace amounts of
aluminum to the area's water supply).

An animal modeled study by Dr Ian Taylor of the Medical University of
South Carolina, Dr Peter Mannon of Duke University Medical Center, Fred
Boehem of the Trace Metal Division of the Great Smokies Diagnostic
Laboratory, et al, showed the mechanism by which aluminum enters the blood
system intestinally, then is deposited in the brains of mice. They believe
their findings provide a suitable model for further study of the same
mechanism increasing the intestinal absorption rate of aluminum in Downs
syndrome people & in alzheimer's sufferers.

Many similar studies have resulted in aluminum cookware being banned in
some European countries. Sensible political response? It would be
according to Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary, which notes that
aluminum corodes into water that is heated 356 degrees. Furthermore, if
your water is flouridated, the flourine in water further corodes the
cookware.

There is no NO QUESTION but that man-made sources of aluminum are
associated with alzheimers. The only question is which or how many
possible sources are absorbed. The studies by Thomas, & by Forbes, as well
as a study by Dr. Paolo Prolo of the University of California at Los
Angeles (which institute you've apparently categorized as crackpot --
perhaps you'd rather rely on your own decision-making powers based on
something rumor of safety spread by aluminum industry) have shown
categorically that aluminum in the water supply is a key source of the
aluminum deposits in human brains & associated with dementia.. Dr. Prolo
however felt that the amount of aluminum from cookware was not yet proven
(not by his study). Paul found that death rates from Alzhiemers raised
signally in areas with aluminum in the water supply (both from water
treatment methods & naturally occurring bauxite among the trace metals),
so this does not speak to cookware or pop cans as sources, no similarly
large populations being available to single out as controls for exposure
vs non-exposure.

So the confusion (or the unwillingness of Alzheimer's researchers to
categorically condemn aluminum cookware) stems from the difficulty of
studying it separately, vs the ease of drawing stats from regions that
have added aluminates to the water system over time. Nevertheless, Dr.
Stephen Levick of the Yale University Medical Center was so creeped out by
his findings about aluminum that he threw away all his aluminum cookware
-- the KNOWLEDGEABLE want to be safe rather than sorry. Dr. John Koning of
the Riverside General Hospital in Corona California worried more about
antacids. And Dr. Creighton Phelps of the Alzheimer's Association says
only that WE KNOW aluminum has abnormally high deposits in the brains of
alzheimer sufferers, so make your decision accordingly.

Of course those medical practitioners are all crackpots in your
estimation. You're bound to prefer the opinion of the Aluminum Association
invested in protecting the can & cookware industry. They like to point out
that a single antacid tablet or buffered aspirin tablet delivers thousands
of times more medical grade aluminate to the system than all the aluminum
cookware you could use in a whole year. But their propaganda is a lie.
Here's the science: If you cook with aluminum, you add an estimated 3.5
milligrams of aluminum to your diet every day. That is one-third the
amount of pharmaceutical grade aluminate in a buffered aspirin, & a
fraction of the amount in the average antacid pill (which can have 50 mg
of aluminates). But it's still a hell of a lot of aluminum ingested from
cookware day in day out, & I personally never take buffered aspirin, never
take any antacid except Tums the one that includes no aluminates, & use an
aluminate-free deodorant since it is also possible to absorb aluminates
through the skin. If in fact most people take only a couple buffered
aspirins PER MONTH, that'd be ten or twenty milligrams of aluminates per
month, but if using aluminum cookware every day, that'd be 105 milligrams
per month. So even the way the Aluminum Association wants you to look at
it isn't very heartening to me. And less they get sued for lying, even the
Aluminum Association advocates NEVER cooking rhubarb or other acidic foods
in aluminum cookware, which increases the amount of aluminum in your diet
dramatically above the 3.5 milligrams daily they otherwise admit to.

The Aluminum Association is fond of this FDA quote: "There is no
information at this time that the normal dietary intake of aluminum [from
the] use of aluminum cookware, or from aluminum food additives or drugs,
is harmful." They're not fond of quoting the updated FDA stances, which
for instance BAN the use of aluminum coming in contact with dairy
products, this despite that the FDA is highly conservative & slow to act
in this kind of area.

What can be said today is that very few scientists believe the 3.5
milligrams daily intake of aluminum from use of aluminum cookware could be
the primary source of the aluminum in alzheimer brain cells, not when the
amount in medications or water supplies is so much greater. Professor
Leonard Berg at Washington School of Medicine in St Louis does not believe
getting rid of one's cookware would lower the daily aluminum exposure
enough to make one whit of difference. Does that mean the cookware has
been given a clean bill of health by those same scientists? Absolute not.
Most of whom followed Dr. Levick's lead & upgraded their cookware long
ago. Zaven S. Khachaturian of the Ronald & Nancy Reagon Alzheimer
Institute says it this way: "Unfortunately there is no clear-cut answer."
But Khachaturian's real point is that it is thus far unknown whether
aluminum exposure CAUSES alzheimers, or alzheimer's causes aluminum
absorption. The real question for these scientists would be "Do you use
aluminum cookware?" I worked a while at the University of Washington
Health Sciences as an medical editor, & was amused to discover that ALL
the researchers in a herpes study had become 100% monogomous -- just to be
on the safe side of something they came to find more & more horrifying --
so too I suspect that Dr. Levick's decision to toss out all his aluminum
cookware was not a novel decision among researchers.

Certainly there are many researchers whose opinion falls to the side of
the issue that pleases the Aluminum Association, & many such could be
cited. For me it's enough that many qualified experts believe the issue is
credible, & even the Aluminum Association "spin" ends up recommending not
to cook acidic foods in their products because of health risks.

So when YOU threw out the idea that GOLD is a toxin, YOU were apparently
being a crackpot, alarmist, or jester without much concern for facts. When
I threw out the possibility that it would be wise to toss one's aluminum
utensils, I had many sources of good science to base this very real
possibility upon. The bottom line is this: Is there proof that aluminum in
the diet is the source of the deposits of aluminum in alzheimer's brains?
The answer is a resounding YES! Is there proof the aluminum CAUSED the
alzheimers? There is not, just as there is no proof it did not cause it.
Yet a study reported in LANCET in 1985 found that trace amounts of
aluminum in the diets of infants caused retarded mental development, so
there's more to this than a side-effect of senile dementia. Is there proof
that any of this aluminum exposure comes from cookware? Yes, 3.5
milligrams per day if you use alumumum in your kitchen. Is there proof
that cutting back 3.5 milligrams per day would lower the risk of
alzheimers? There is no evidence one way or the other. Does that mean you
SHOULD exposure yourself to foods cooked or stored in aluminum? There's a
gene pool argument to be made that if you have this information, & still
want to cook in aluminum, then you really should do so -- for the sake of
the gene pool. And there's an aesthetic principle at work, too, as many
people really do need those aluminum pots & pans to match their rusty ol'
trailer houses.

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
July 17th 03, 05:56 PM
In article >, "Don K"
> wrote:
>
> I, too, like to make my own decisions.
> The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
> kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
> Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
> the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.
Not paranoid according to gerontologist William Forbes of the University
of Waterloo whose 1995 study showed that a population exposed to aluminum
in their diet for 35 years had impaired mental functions 10 times higher
than in areas without the exposure (in this case it was a water treatment
method that included aluminum & ended up delivering trace amounts of
aluminum to the area's water supply).

An animal modeled study by Dr Ian Taylor of the Medical University of
South Carolina, Dr Peter Mannon of Duke University Medical Center, Fred
Boehem of the Trace Metal Division of the Great Smokies Diagnostic
Laboratory, et al, showed the mechanism by which aluminum enters the blood
system intestinally, then is deposited in the brains of mice. They believe
their findings provide a suitable model for further study of the same
mechanism increasing the intestinal absorption rate of aluminum in Downs
syndrome people & in alzheimer's sufferers.

Many similar studies have resulted in aluminum cookware being banned in
some European countries. Sensible political response? It would be
according to Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary, which notes that
aluminum corodes into water that is heated 356 degrees. Furthermore, if
your water is flouridated, the flourine in water further corodes the
cookware.

There is no NO QUESTION but that man-made sources of aluminum are
associated with alzheimers. The only question is which or how many
possible sources are absorbed. The studies by Thomas, & by Forbes, as well
as a study by Dr. Paolo Prolo of the University of California at Los
Angeles (which institute you've apparently categorized as crackpot --
perhaps you'd rather rely on your own decision-making powers based on
something rumor of safety spread by aluminum industry) have shown
categorically that aluminum in the water supply is a key source of the
aluminum deposits in human brains & associated with dementia.. Dr. Prolo
however felt that the amount of aluminum from cookware was not yet proven
(not by his study). Paul found that death rates from Alzhiemers raised
signally in areas with aluminum in the water supply (both from water
treatment methods & naturally occurring bauxite among the trace metals),
so this does not speak to cookware or pop cans as sources, no similarly
large populations being available to single out as controls for exposure
vs non-exposure.

So the confusion (or the unwillingness of Alzheimer's researchers to
categorically condemn aluminum cookware) stems from the difficulty of
studying it separately, vs the ease of drawing stats from regions that
have added aluminates to the water system over time. Nevertheless, Dr.
Stephen Levick of the Yale University Medical Center was so creeped out by
his findings about aluminum that he threw away all his aluminum cookware
-- the KNOWLEDGEABLE want to be safe rather than sorry. Dr. John Koning of
the Riverside General Hospital in Corona California worried more about
antacids. And Dr. Creighton Phelps of the Alzheimer's Association says
only that WE KNOW aluminum has abnormally high deposits in the brains of
alzheimer sufferers, so make your decision accordingly.

Of course those medical practitioners are all crackpots in your
estimation. You're bound to prefer the opinion of the Aluminum Association
invested in protecting the can & cookware industry. They like to point out
that a single antacid tablet or buffered aspirin tablet delivers thousands
of times more medical grade aluminate to the system than all the aluminum
cookware you could use in a whole year. But their propaganda is a lie.
Here's the science: If you cook with aluminum, you add an estimated 3.5
milligrams of aluminum to your diet every day. That is one-third the
amount of pharmaceutical grade aluminate in a buffered aspirin, & a
fraction of the amount in the average antacid pill (which can have 50 mg
of aluminates). But it's still a hell of a lot of aluminum ingested from
cookware day in day out, & I personally never take buffered aspirin, never
take any antacid except Tums the one that includes no aluminates, & use an
aluminate-free deodorant since it is also possible to absorb aluminates
through the skin. If in fact most people take only a couple buffered
aspirins PER MONTH, that'd be ten or twenty milligrams of aluminates per
month, but if using aluminum cookware every day, that'd be 105 milligrams
per month. So even the way the Aluminum Association wants you to look at
it isn't very heartening to me. And less they get sued for lying, even the
Aluminum Association advocates NEVER cooking rhubarb or other acidic foods
in aluminum cookware, which increases the amount of aluminum in your diet
dramatically above the 3.5 milligrams daily they otherwise admit to.

The Aluminum Association is fond of this FDA quote: "There is no
information at this time that the normal dietary intake of aluminum [from
the] use of aluminum cookware, or from aluminum food additives or drugs,
is harmful." They're not fond of quoting the updated FDA stances, which
for instance BAN the use of aluminum coming in contact with dairy
products, this despite that the FDA is highly conservative & slow to act
in this kind of area.

What can be said today is that very few scientists believe the 3.5
milligrams daily intake of aluminum from use of aluminum cookware could be
the primary source of the aluminum in alzheimer brain cells, not when the
amount in medications or water supplies is so much greater. Professor
Leonard Berg at Washington School of Medicine in St Louis does not believe
getting rid of one's cookware would lower the daily aluminum exposure
enough to make one whit of difference. Does that mean the cookware has
been given a clean bill of health by those same scientists? Absolute not.
Most of whom followed Dr. Levick's lead & upgraded their cookware long
ago. Zaven S. Khachaturian of the Ronald & Nancy Reagon Alzheimer
Institute says it this way: "Unfortunately there is no clear-cut answer."
But Khachaturian's real point is that it is thus far unknown whether
aluminum exposure CAUSES alzheimers, or alzheimer's causes aluminum
absorption. The real question for these scientists would be "Do you use
aluminum cookware?" I worked a while at the University of Washington
Health Sciences as an medical editor, & was amused to discover that ALL
the researchers in a herpes study had become 100% monogomous -- just to be
on the safe side of something they came to find more & more horrifying --
so too I suspect that Dr. Levick's decision to toss out all his aluminum
cookware was not a novel decision among researchers.

Certainly there are many researchers whose opinion falls to the side of
the issue that pleases the Aluminum Association, & many such could be
cited. For me it's enough that many qualified experts believe the issue is
credible, & even the Aluminum Association "spin" ends up recommending not
to cook acidic foods in their products because of health risks.

So when YOU threw out the idea that GOLD is a toxin, YOU were apparently
being a crackpot, alarmist, or jester without much concern for facts. When
I threw out the possibility that it would be wise to toss one's aluminum
utensils, I had many sources of good science to base this very real
possibility upon. The bottom line is this: Is there proof that aluminum in
the diet is the source of the deposits of aluminum in alzheimer's brains?
The answer is a resounding YES! Is there proof the aluminum CAUSED the
alzheimers? There is not, just as there is no proof it did not cause it.
Yet a study reported in LANCET in 1985 found that trace amounts of
aluminum in the diets of infants caused retarded mental development, so
there's more to this than a side-effect of senile dementia. Is there proof
that any of this aluminum exposure comes from cookware? Yes, 3.5
milligrams per day if you use alumumum in your kitchen. Is there proof
that cutting back 3.5 milligrams per day would lower the risk of
alzheimers? There is no evidence one way or the other. Does that mean you
SHOULD exposure yourself to foods cooked or stored in aluminum? There's a
gene pool argument to be made that if you have this information, & still
want to cook in aluminum, then you really should do so -- for the sake of
the gene pool. And there's an aesthetic principle at work, too, as many
people really do need those aluminum pots & pans to match their rusty ol'
trailer houses.

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Don K
July 18th 03, 01:37 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Don K"
> > wrote:
> >
> > I, too, like to make my own decisions.
> > The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
> > kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
> > Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
> > the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.
>
> Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
> reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
> checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
> be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
> think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
> others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
> for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
> the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
> with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
> this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
> my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
> I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
> aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
> Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
> CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.

Dr. Barry Thomas is a consultant for Health Canada.

Here is the position of Health Canada regarding aluminum cookware:
"Aluminum can also leach into food from cookware,
utensils and wrappings, but studies to date have shown that the
amount of aluminum leached from these sources is generally negligible."

I wonder if they ran that one by Dr. Barry.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/water/factsheets/aluminum_human_health.htm

Don

Don K
July 18th 03, 01:37 AM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Don K"
> > wrote:
> >
> > I, too, like to make my own decisions.
> > The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
> > kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
> > Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
> > the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.
>
> Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
> reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
> checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
> be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
> think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
> others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
> for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
> the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
> with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
> this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
> my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
> I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
> aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
> Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
> CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.

Dr. Barry Thomas is a consultant for Health Canada.

Here is the position of Health Canada regarding aluminum cookware:
"Aluminum can also leach into food from cookware,
utensils and wrappings, but studies to date have shown that the
amount of aluminum leached from these sources is generally negligible."

I wonder if they ran that one by Dr. Barry.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/water/factsheets/aluminum_human_health.htm

Don

paghat
July 18th 03, 03:27 AM
In article >, "Don K"
> wrote:

> "paghat" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Don K"
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > I, too, like to make my own decisions.
> > > The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
> > > kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
> > > Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
> > > the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.
> >
> > Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
> > reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
> > checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
> > be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
> > think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
> > others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
> > for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
> > the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
> > with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
> > this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
> > my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
> > I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
> > aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
> > Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
> > CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.
>
> Dr. Barry Thomas is a consultant for Health Canada.

Actually Dr. Thomas is retired, though still cited as senior researcher on
sundry research projects involving toxicity of drinking water, & cited on
the specific rat-modeled Australian Institute for Biomedical Research
study as that research's "Chief Directorate." If you need an explanation
for how you could be the head of a study not personally conducted, then
it's not surprising you also don't understand the outcomes if you don't
understand the process. The hands-on work was overseen by Dr. Judie
Walton. There were a slew of other authors in the symposium papers
eventually published with Dr. Thomas as first author (because he oversaw
the editing & choices for the book & wrote the introduction) -- everyone
pretty much agreed (as Dr Barry agrees) that aluminum dissolved in water
ends up deposited in brain tissue. None address the specific issue of pots
& pans, but they have definitely put to rest the delusion that aluminum
appears spontaneously in the brain -- it enters the bloodstream from the
intestins as a dietary contaminant.

Aluminum sulfate is ADDED to some metropolitan water systems in the
treatment process & that has had Dr. Thomas's priority to stop, even
though he also has said there is not yet any "proof" that the alumnum is
the cause of senile dementia. When a scientist speaks of "unproven" he's
not general implying the opposite IS proven. And Dr Thomas's specific
statement regarding almuminum as the causal agent was "there is not
conclusive evidence. But we fear that it may." All that is definite is if
you eat or drink anything that has aluminum traces therein, it will find
its way to your brain. The rest may be assumption, but then, even gravity
is just a theory, but we seem to adhere to the earth fairly well without
proving it.

> Here is the position of Health Canada regarding aluminum cookware:
> "Aluminum can also leach into food from cookware,
> utensils and wrappings, but studies to date have shown that the
> amount of aluminum leached from these sources is generally negligible."

I gave the specifics. 3.5 milligrams per day JUST from the cookware IF you
don't cook anything acidic like tomato sauce or rubarb (then it'll be
more) or if the water you're boiling is flouridated (then the amount of
aluminum dissolved be still more). But under the best of conditions, a
"mere" 3.5 milligrams per day, day in & day out, just from the cheapy-ass
aluminum cookware you're so proud to own. Add another 10 milligrams (or
more) from a buffered asprin if you're one of those dopes who take a pill
a day, another 30 or 40 milligrams from an antacids, it's starting to look
like a healthy dose. If you REALLY want to cite some physicians who don't
think that's a problem you could do MUCH better than Dr Thomas, who has
never said it's not a problem, only that the greater problem is the amount
of aluminum in drinking water.

Though much is not "proven" in absolute scientific terms, the least likely
thing to EVER be proven is that ANY of the sources of aluminum
contaminants are perfectly healthy & play no role whatsoever & that 3.5
milligrams per day is of no earthly consequence. There for a while (up
into the middle 1980s) even the idea of bodily absorption of aluminum from
diet & water was "unmproven" & Science Diget in the late 70s ran a whole
series of articles among which only about one in ten thought it at all
likely. Now pretty much every scientists agrees it's true -- the arguments
are now over which sources play the largest role, or whether it causes
senility or is a natural byproduct of other causes of senility. The Lancet
report on aluminum contaminants in infant diets lowering their average
intelligence as they develop seems to ME damnably definitive that aluminum
is causal, but scientists are rightly chary of claiming to have discovered
absolutes.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

paghat
July 18th 03, 03:27 AM
In article >, "Don K"
> wrote:

> "paghat" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Don K"
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > I, too, like to make my own decisions.
> > > The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
> > > kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
> > > Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
> > > the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.
> >
> > Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
> > reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
> > checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
> > be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
> > think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
> > others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
> > for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
> > the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
> > with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
> > this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
> > my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
> > I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
> > aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
> > Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
> > CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.
>
> Dr. Barry Thomas is a consultant for Health Canada.

Actually Dr. Thomas is retired, though still cited as senior researcher on
sundry research projects involving toxicity of drinking water, & cited on
the specific rat-modeled Australian Institute for Biomedical Research
study as that research's "Chief Directorate." If you need an explanation
for how you could be the head of a study not personally conducted, then
it's not surprising you also don't understand the outcomes if you don't
understand the process. The hands-on work was overseen by Dr. Judie
Walton. There were a slew of other authors in the symposium papers
eventually published with Dr. Thomas as first author (because he oversaw
the editing & choices for the book & wrote the introduction) -- everyone
pretty much agreed (as Dr Barry agrees) that aluminum dissolved in water
ends up deposited in brain tissue. None address the specific issue of pots
& pans, but they have definitely put to rest the delusion that aluminum
appears spontaneously in the brain -- it enters the bloodstream from the
intestins as a dietary contaminant.

Aluminum sulfate is ADDED to some metropolitan water systems in the
treatment process & that has had Dr. Thomas's priority to stop, even
though he also has said there is not yet any "proof" that the alumnum is
the cause of senile dementia. When a scientist speaks of "unproven" he's
not general implying the opposite IS proven. And Dr Thomas's specific
statement regarding almuminum as the causal agent was "there is not
conclusive evidence. But we fear that it may." All that is definite is if
you eat or drink anything that has aluminum traces therein, it will find
its way to your brain. The rest may be assumption, but then, even gravity
is just a theory, but we seem to adhere to the earth fairly well without
proving it.

> Here is the position of Health Canada regarding aluminum cookware:
> "Aluminum can also leach into food from cookware,
> utensils and wrappings, but studies to date have shown that the
> amount of aluminum leached from these sources is generally negligible."

I gave the specifics. 3.5 milligrams per day JUST from the cookware IF you
don't cook anything acidic like tomato sauce or rubarb (then it'll be
more) or if the water you're boiling is flouridated (then the amount of
aluminum dissolved be still more). But under the best of conditions, a
"mere" 3.5 milligrams per day, day in & day out, just from the cheapy-ass
aluminum cookware you're so proud to own. Add another 10 milligrams (or
more) from a buffered asprin if you're one of those dopes who take a pill
a day, another 30 or 40 milligrams from an antacids, it's starting to look
like a healthy dose. If you REALLY want to cite some physicians who don't
think that's a problem you could do MUCH better than Dr Thomas, who has
never said it's not a problem, only that the greater problem is the amount
of aluminum in drinking water.

Though much is not "proven" in absolute scientific terms, the least likely
thing to EVER be proven is that ANY of the sources of aluminum
contaminants are perfectly healthy & play no role whatsoever & that 3.5
milligrams per day is of no earthly consequence. There for a while (up
into the middle 1980s) even the idea of bodily absorption of aluminum from
diet & water was "unmproven" & Science Diget in the late 70s ran a whole
series of articles among which only about one in ten thought it at all
likely. Now pretty much every scientists agrees it's true -- the arguments
are now over which sources play the largest role, or whether it causes
senility or is a natural byproduct of other causes of senility. The Lancet
report on aluminum contaminants in infant diets lowering their average
intelligence as they develop seems to ME damnably definitive that aluminum
is causal, but scientists are rightly chary of claiming to have discovered
absolutes.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Seamus Ma' Cleriec
July 18th 03, 06:01 PM
I've been a lurker, but I just can't resist my 2 cents - Aluminum is
the most common element found in the earth's crust. Just about any
water which is not otherwise purified (distilled or ion exchanged) is
going to contain Aluminum.
The increase in concentration through contact with cans and pots will
*insignificant*.

Also note that Aluminum develops a patina of Aluminum Oxide (*) which
is highly insoluable.

* aka corundum - same stuff as rubies and sapphire

Seamus Ma' Cleriec
July 18th 03, 06:01 PM
I've been a lurker, but I just can't resist my 2 cents - Aluminum is
the most common element found in the earth's crust. Just about any
water which is not otherwise purified (distilled or ion exchanged) is
going to contain Aluminum.
The increase in concentration through contact with cans and pots will
*insignificant*.

Also note that Aluminum develops a patina of Aluminum Oxide (*) which
is highly insoluable.

* aka corundum - same stuff as rubies and sapphire

Salty Thumb
July 18th 03, 07:36 PM
(Seamus Ma' Cleriec) wrote in
om:

> I've been a lurker, but I just can't resist my 2 cents - Aluminum is
> the most common element found in the earth's crust. Just about any

If you care to change 'element' to 'metal' or 'most' to 'third most',
I'll agree with you.

> water which is not otherwise purified (distilled or ion exchanged) is
> going to contain Aluminum.

How much and in what chemical form?

> The increase in concentration through contact with cans and pots will
> *insignificant*.

How did you come to this conclusion? Are you also saying naturally
occuring aluminum compounds and artifically leached aluminum have the
same biological reactivity?

> Also note that Aluminum develops a patina of Aluminum Oxide (*) which
> is highly insoluable.

What happens when you apply acid or a catalytic agent that dissolves the
patina?

> * aka corundum - same stuff as rubies and sapphire

I'll agree that the Al-O bonds in Al2O3 are quite strong even when
developed as a patina, but considering it inexpertly, that seems
analogous to saying graphite and diamonds have the same hardness.

Thanks for the 2 cents, but I think I'll need at least a dollar.

-- Salty

Salty Thumb
July 18th 03, 07:36 PM
(Seamus Ma' Cleriec) wrote in
om:

> I've been a lurker, but I just can't resist my 2 cents - Aluminum is
> the most common element found in the earth's crust. Just about any

If you care to change 'element' to 'metal' or 'most' to 'third most',
I'll agree with you.

> water which is not otherwise purified (distilled or ion exchanged) is
> going to contain Aluminum.

How much and in what chemical form?

> The increase in concentration through contact with cans and pots will
> *insignificant*.

How did you come to this conclusion? Are you also saying naturally
occuring aluminum compounds and artifically leached aluminum have the
same biological reactivity?

> Also note that Aluminum develops a patina of Aluminum Oxide (*) which
> is highly insoluable.

What happens when you apply acid or a catalytic agent that dissolves the
patina?

> * aka corundum - same stuff as rubies and sapphire

I'll agree that the Al-O bonds in Al2O3 are quite strong even when
developed as a patina, but considering it inexpertly, that seems
analogous to saying graphite and diamonds have the same hardness.

Thanks for the 2 cents, but I think I'll need at least a dollar.

-- Salty

Franz Heymann
July 18th 03, 10:17 PM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...

[snip]

> The
> answer confessed to by the aluminum industry itself is: approximately 3.5
> milligrams injested per day by anyone who cooks in aluminum.

Reference please.

[snip]

Franz Heymann

Franz Heymann
July 18th 03, 10:17 PM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...

[snip]

> The
> answer confessed to by the aluminum industry itself is: approximately 3.5
> milligrams injested per day by anyone who cooks in aluminum.

Reference please.

[snip]

Franz Heymann

Franz Heymann
July 18th 03, 10:46 PM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...

[snip]

> I won't drink from
> aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?

Undoubtedly it is paranoid. But take courage, you might feel a great deal
relieved if you were to study the contents of the url
www.alzheimers.org.uk in detail. In brief, the line there is that there is
NO known causal link between Aluminium and Alzheimers, and that it is
looking ever more likely that Aluminium is of minor or no importance in the
development of dementia.

[snip]

Franz Heymann

Franz Heymann
July 18th 03, 10:46 PM
"paghat" > wrote in message
...

[snip]

> I won't drink from
> aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?

Undoubtedly it is paranoid. But take courage, you might feel a great deal
relieved if you were to study the contents of the url
www.alzheimers.org.uk in detail. In brief, the line there is that there is
NO known causal link between Aluminium and Alzheimers, and that it is
looking ever more likely that Aluminium is of minor or no importance in the
development of dementia.

[snip]

Franz Heymann

Salty Thumb
July 18th 03, 11:10 PM
"Franz Heymann" > wrote in
:

>
> "paghat" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> [snip]
>
>> I won't drink from
>> aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it
>> paranoid?
>
> Undoubtedly it is paranoid. But take courage, you might feel a great
> deal relieved if you were to study the contents of the url
> www.alzheimers.org.uk in detail. In brief, the line there is that
> there is NO known causal link between Aluminium and Alzheimers, and
> that it is looking ever more likely that Aluminium is of minor or no
> importance in the development of dementia.
>
> [snip]
>
> Franz Heymann
>
>

From:
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/Facts_about_dementia/Risk_factors/info_alumini
um.htm

>There is circumstantial evidence linking this metal with Alzheimer's
disease but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for
other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems
increasingly unlikely.

later ...

>Researchers believe that, in the majority of those affected, Alzheimer's
disease results from a combination of different risk factors rather than a
single cause.

So they've said Alzheimer's results from a combination of risk factors
after offering proof by probability that aluminum is not one of the causes.

Still later:
>The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings
outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship
between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, and that no useful medical or
public health recommendations can be made, at least at present.

"no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made" - not for
and not against

>It has proved extremely difficult to devise studies which could resolve
this problem one way or another.

Woe to you if you've been chowing on aluminum and carry the hypothetical
Aluminum-nut-job gene. The rest of you move along, nothing to see here.

- Salty Nut Job

P.S. cute elephants in the gift shop

Salty Thumb
July 18th 03, 11:10 PM
"Franz Heymann" > wrote in
:

>
> "paghat" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> [snip]
>
>> I won't drink from
>> aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it
>> paranoid?
>
> Undoubtedly it is paranoid. But take courage, you might feel a great
> deal relieved if you were to study the contents of the url
> www.alzheimers.org.uk in detail. In brief, the line there is that
> there is NO known causal link between Aluminium and Alzheimers, and
> that it is looking ever more likely that Aluminium is of minor or no
> importance in the development of dementia.
>
> [snip]
>
> Franz Heymann
>
>

From:
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/Facts_about_dementia/Risk_factors/info_alumini
um.htm

>There is circumstantial evidence linking this metal with Alzheimer's
disease but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for
other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems
increasingly unlikely.

later ...

>Researchers believe that, in the majority of those affected, Alzheimer's
disease results from a combination of different risk factors rather than a
single cause.

So they've said Alzheimer's results from a combination of risk factors
after offering proof by probability that aluminum is not one of the causes.

Still later:
>The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings
outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship
between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, and that no useful medical or
public health recommendations can be made, at least at present.

"no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made" - not for
and not against

>It has proved extremely difficult to devise studies which could resolve
this problem one way or another.

Woe to you if you've been chowing on aluminum and carry the hypothetical
Aluminum-nut-job gene. The rest of you move along, nothing to see here.

- Salty Nut Job

P.S. cute elephants in the gift shop

Deadend
July 19th 03, 12:23 AM
Salty Thumb > wrote in message >...
> "David Hill" > wrote in news:bf4g4c
> :
>
> > What is the relevance of gold mining to Plant labels????????
> > I can see a gold mine would help to buy all the plants we would like to
> > have.
> >
>
> sorry, I should have modified the subject line earlier
>
> here's an idea from NutGen:
>
> self labeling tomato plants - as a tomato plant grows, the name and
> cultivar gradually appears on the stem. Currently, the names are only
> available in Italian, but English versions should be available 2Q 2005.
>
> and here's a martha stewarty idea:
>
> take a picture of a plant or pluck off a leaf
> dry it in isopropyl alcohol (if using a leaf) or otherwise dessicate
> write name on picture (if using picture)
> laminate the sucker or intomb in polyurethane.
> scratch name into polyurethane (if using leaf)
> rub some native gold into the scratched name
> add a couple more layers of poly for good measure
> put outside next to plant

Huh. And I thought all the best nuts came from California. Go figure.

Regards,

Deadend

Deadend
July 19th 03, 12:23 AM
Salty Thumb > wrote in message >...
> "David Hill" > wrote in news:bf4g4c
> :
>
> > What is the relevance of gold mining to Plant labels????????
> > I can see a gold mine would help to buy all the plants we would like to
> > have.
> >
>
> sorry, I should have modified the subject line earlier
>
> here's an idea from NutGen:
>
> self labeling tomato plants - as a tomato plant grows, the name and
> cultivar gradually appears on the stem. Currently, the names are only
> available in Italian, but English versions should be available 2Q 2005.
>
> and here's a martha stewarty idea:
>
> take a picture of a plant or pluck off a leaf
> dry it in isopropyl alcohol (if using a leaf) or otherwise dessicate
> write name on picture (if using picture)
> laminate the sucker or intomb in polyurethane.
> scratch name into polyurethane (if using leaf)
> rub some native gold into the scratched name
> add a couple more layers of poly for good measure
> put outside next to plant

Huh. And I thought all the best nuts came from California. Go figure.

Regards,

Deadend

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