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Clisby Williams
July 20th 03, 04:09 AM
Ned Flanders wrote:

>"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
>
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some advice.
>>
>>I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about 20k
>>at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
>>little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>>
>>My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
>>paid for before I graduated.
>>
>>My problem is: where do I go from here?
>>
>>1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program, theoretically,
>>I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
>>advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted into
>>the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
>>"going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
>>higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
>>money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
>>40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
>>competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
>>parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like 2
>>years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
>>hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>>
>>2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
>>I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
>>and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
>>where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
>>stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
>>business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
>>financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
>>be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
>>is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
>>promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
>>
>>3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
>>better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
>>some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
>>a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay tuition.
>>This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
>>Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
>>stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>>
>>After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
>>seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation, and
>>I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also afraid
>>a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income. Oh, and
>>the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
>>lexus.
>>
>>So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Nolan
>>
>>
>
>The rent you pay is curious, seems very high for a small town in North
>Carolina. You could own a home with a smaller payment, perhaps a
>better option is to also look for better digs. If you do not want to
>be a nurse do not go through the motions only not to end up a nurse by
>dropping out of the program or worse off becoming a nurse and hating
>it and treating people while hating it is not good for you or the
>patients.
>

I wouldn't think $545/month was "very high" for Asheville. It's not
impossible that
he could do better, but Asheville isn't out in the boondocks - it's in a
very tourist-y area,
which IME tends to drive up housing prices. (Charleston, S.C., isn't
a big city, either -
but I can promise you $545 a month would be a good deal.)

Clisby

>You are where you are. For better or for worse. But you are there
>for some reason. At least you are mature enough to desire self
>improvement--that is something many people twice your age do not
>realize:) Have you traveled? Do you fully realize what the world has
>to offer? You have to have something in your life that you are
>passionate about, which could be turned into a career. Sometimes
>volunteering can introduce you to new vocations and can give you a
>preview of what it is like in certain fields of employment. It also
>exposes you to different people who may see something inside you and
>may compliment or critique you which could unlock hidden talents.
>Just some thoughts--good luck and I hope you enjoy the journey.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Ned
>
>

Clisby Williams
July 20th 03, 04:09 AM
Ned Flanders wrote:

>"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
>
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some advice.
>>
>>I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about 20k
>>at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
>>little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>>
>>My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
>>paid for before I graduated.
>>
>>My problem is: where do I go from here?
>>
>>1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program, theoretically,
>>I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
>>advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted into
>>the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
>>"going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
>>higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
>>money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
>>40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
>>competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
>>parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like 2
>>years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
>>hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>>
>>2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
>>I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
>>and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
>>where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
>>stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
>>business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
>>financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
>>be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
>>is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
>>promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
>>
>>3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
>>better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
>>some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
>>a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay tuition.
>>This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
>>Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
>>stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>>
>>After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
>>seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation, and
>>I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also afraid
>>a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income. Oh, and
>>the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
>>lexus.
>>
>>So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Nolan
>>
>>
>
>The rent you pay is curious, seems very high for a small town in North
>Carolina. You could own a home with a smaller payment, perhaps a
>better option is to also look for better digs. If you do not want to
>be a nurse do not go through the motions only not to end up a nurse by
>dropping out of the program or worse off becoming a nurse and hating
>it and treating people while hating it is not good for you or the
>patients.
>

I wouldn't think $545/month was "very high" for Asheville. It's not
impossible that
he could do better, but Asheville isn't out in the boondocks - it's in a
very tourist-y area,
which IME tends to drive up housing prices. (Charleston, S.C., isn't
a big city, either -
but I can promise you $545 a month would be a good deal.)

Clisby

>You are where you are. For better or for worse. But you are there
>for some reason. At least you are mature enough to desire self
>improvement--that is something many people twice your age do not
>realize:) Have you traveled? Do you fully realize what the world has
>to offer? You have to have something in your life that you are
>passionate about, which could be turned into a career. Sometimes
>volunteering can introduce you to new vocations and can give you a
>preview of what it is like in certain fields of employment. It also
>exposes you to different people who may see something inside you and
>may compliment or critique you which could unlock hidden talents.
>Just some thoughts--good luck and I hope you enjoy the journey.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Ned
>
>

Ned Flanders
July 20th 03, 03:15 PM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
> Hello,
>
> I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some advice.
>
> I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about 20k
> at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
> little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>
> My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
> paid for before I graduated.
>
> My problem is: where do I go from here?
>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program, theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like 2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>
> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
> where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
> financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
>
> 3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
> a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay tuition.
> This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>
> After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation, and
> I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also afraid
> a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income. Oh, and
> the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> lexus.
>
> So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> Thanks,
> Nolan

The rent you pay is curious, seems very high for a small town in North
Carolina. You could own a home with a smaller payment, perhaps a
better option is to also look for better digs. If you do not want to
be a nurse do not go through the motions only not to end up a nurse by
dropping out of the program or worse off becoming a nurse and hating
it and treating people while hating it is not good for you or the
patients.
You are where you are. For better or for worse. But you are there
for some reason. At least you are mature enough to desire self
improvement--that is something many people twice your age do not
realize:) Have you traveled? Do you fully realize what the world has
to offer? You have to have something in your life that you are
passionate about, which could be turned into a career. Sometimes
volunteering can introduce you to new vocations and can give you a
preview of what it is like in certain fields of employment. It also
exposes you to different people who may see something inside you and
may compliment or critique you which could unlock hidden talents.
Just some thoughts--good luck and I hope you enjoy the journey.

Cheers,

Ned

Tomcat14
July 20th 03, 03:36 PM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
> Hello,
>
> I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some advice.
>
> I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about 20k
> at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
> little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>
> My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
> paid for before I graduated.
>
> My problem is: where do I go from here?
>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program, theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like 2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>
> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
> where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
> financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
>
> 3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
> a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay tuition.
> This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>
> After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation, and
> I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also afraid
> a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income. Oh, and
> the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> lexus.
>
> So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> Thanks,
> Nolan

Move everything on your list down one notch and put career counseling
up on top. Your concerns seem to be money and leisure. You'd like more
money, but putting it off for some leisure looks attractive to you.
Hence, your inclination to item (2).
Try to figure out what you want to do in life. Doing it well can lead
to money later. If you can't figure it out, then at least pursue an
education. Don't stumble around waiting or hoping some company will
love you and pay your tuition. You have already spent three years
"thinking". Where did you think you were going to go at the drug
store?

Tomcat14
July 20th 03, 03:36 PM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
> Hello,
>
> I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some advice.
>
> I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about 20k
> at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
> little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>
> My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
> paid for before I graduated.
>
> My problem is: where do I go from here?
>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program, theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like 2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>
> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
> where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
> financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
>
> 3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
> a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay tuition.
> This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>
> After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation, and
> I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also afraid
> a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income. Oh, and
> the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> lexus.
>
> So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> Thanks,
> Nolan

Move everything on your list down one notch and put career counseling
up on top. Your concerns seem to be money and leisure. You'd like more
money, but putting it off for some leisure looks attractive to you.
Hence, your inclination to item (2).
Try to figure out what you want to do in life. Doing it well can lead
to money later. If you can't figure it out, then at least pursue an
education. Don't stumble around waiting or hoping some company will
love you and pay your tuition. You have already spent three years
"thinking". Where did you think you were going to go at the drug
store?

silvasurfa
July 20th 03, 04:32 PM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some
advice.
>
> I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about
20k
> at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
> little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>
> My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
> paid for before I graduated.
>
> My problem is: where do I go from here?

Start by socking away as much money as you can, capital at this end of your
life is incredibly useful.

>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program,
theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted
into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place
of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and
working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like
2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.

I wouldn't do this myself... nursing is a yucky job, and you simply
shouldn't take that path unless you really want to *be* a nurse.

> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community
college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
> where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> business classes.

Business courses are available at community colleges too aren't they? Not as
high level, but it might be enough for you to get a better job in the area
you want to work in, and work your way up.

The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
> financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.

Well where do you want your liberal arts degree to take you? A government
job maybe, translating foreign newspapers for the CIA... or being a
diplomat... or working for a major corporation in inport/export... etc.
Think of a place you want to be that fits in with what you want to do. This
may help you work out what will be effective use of your time.

And may I suggest that if you really love foreign languages, you should
probably be seriously learning one now, even without being at college? The
work and discipline involved is very similar whether you are or aren't doing
a degree. I'm a bit doubtful about whether you really do love languages, if
you feel you have to wait to study them formally.... maybe you love the
*idea* of being good at languages?

Incidentally, as far as getting qualified as an interpreter, where I live it
is done by exam... you sit an exam in interpreting that language, and how
well you score determines what level interpreter you may work as. This makes
perfect sense, as it allows for people who are native speakers of a language
other than English to quickly become interpreters if their English is good.
If the process is similar where you live, you may not need to ever enrol in
a degree to learn a language and become qualified in it. Look for night
classes in a language you feel will suit your goals, and try it out... you
may discover that you aren't up to the work involved. If you can't do night
classes, get some lessons on CD/CDROM/tape and hang out with the local
speakers of the language.


>
> 3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further
without
> a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay
tuition.

How are government jobs where you live? Do they offer study leave, flexible
working conditions and benefits? They do where I live, but the USA is
different in lots of things.

> This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> stability is important while my cats are growing up.

Getting pets was a bit silly, given that you are in a phase of your life
when mobility may be important. Don't get any more for the moment okay?

>
> After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation,
and
> I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also
afraid
> a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income.

Everything I have ever heard indicates that being in the USA without health
insurance is a very dangerous thing indeed. Even if you don't find a career
direction, at least look for a job with health insurance, And save some
money.

Oh, and
> the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> lexus.

You look like committing yourself before you know where you are going. That
is silly.

>
> So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> Thanks,
> Nolan
>
>

Start seriously learning a language... put some work into it, decide if you
like it, find out how you can turn that language into a job.

silvasurfa
July 20th 03, 04:32 PM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some
advice.
>
> I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about
20k
> at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
> little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>
> My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
> paid for before I graduated.
>
> My problem is: where do I go from here?

Start by socking away as much money as you can, capital at this end of your
life is incredibly useful.

>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program,
theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted
into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place
of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and
working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like
2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.

I wouldn't do this myself... nursing is a yucky job, and you simply
shouldn't take that path unless you really want to *be* a nurse.

> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community
college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
> where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> business classes.

Business courses are available at community colleges too aren't they? Not as
high level, but it might be enough for you to get a better job in the area
you want to work in, and work your way up.

The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
> financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.

Well where do you want your liberal arts degree to take you? A government
job maybe, translating foreign newspapers for the CIA... or being a
diplomat... or working for a major corporation in inport/export... etc.
Think of a place you want to be that fits in with what you want to do. This
may help you work out what will be effective use of your time.

And may I suggest that if you really love foreign languages, you should
probably be seriously learning one now, even without being at college? The
work and discipline involved is very similar whether you are or aren't doing
a degree. I'm a bit doubtful about whether you really do love languages, if
you feel you have to wait to study them formally.... maybe you love the
*idea* of being good at languages?

Incidentally, as far as getting qualified as an interpreter, where I live it
is done by exam... you sit an exam in interpreting that language, and how
well you score determines what level interpreter you may work as. This makes
perfect sense, as it allows for people who are native speakers of a language
other than English to quickly become interpreters if their English is good.
If the process is similar where you live, you may not need to ever enrol in
a degree to learn a language and become qualified in it. Look for night
classes in a language you feel will suit your goals, and try it out... you
may discover that you aren't up to the work involved. If you can't do night
classes, get some lessons on CD/CDROM/tape and hang out with the local
speakers of the language.


>
> 3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further
without
> a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay
tuition.

How are government jobs where you live? Do they offer study leave, flexible
working conditions and benefits? They do where I live, but the USA is
different in lots of things.

> This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> stability is important while my cats are growing up.

Getting pets was a bit silly, given that you are in a phase of your life
when mobility may be important. Don't get any more for the moment okay?

>
> After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation,
and
> I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also
afraid
> a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income.

Everything I have ever heard indicates that being in the USA without health
insurance is a very dangerous thing indeed. Even if you don't find a career
direction, at least look for a job with health insurance, And save some
money.

Oh, and
> the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> lexus.

You look like committing yourself before you know where you are going. That
is silly.

>
> So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> Thanks,
> Nolan
>
>

Start seriously learning a language... put some work into it, decide if you
like it, find out how you can turn that language into a job.

spncity
July 20th 03, 04:39 PM
Check out the book "Finding Your Own North Star" by Martha Beck. By doing
the exercises you'll get some great insights into yourself and your best
future.

spncity

spncity
July 20th 03, 04:39 PM
Check out the book "Finding Your Own North Star" by Martha Beck. By doing
the exercises you'll get some great insights into yourself and your best
future.

spncity

Albert Wagner
July 20th 03, 08:33 PM
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:36:54 GMT
jean and bill > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> says...
> > I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> > parents income and assets
> >
> If you are self-supporting, with a separate address from your parents,
>
> and cannot be claimed as a dependent on their taxes, then I wouldn't
> think their assets would have any impact on what you qualify for.

I think you have to be self-supporting for at least two years now.

Albert Wagner
July 20th 03, 08:33 PM
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:36:54 GMT
jean and bill > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> says...
> > I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> > parents income and assets
> >
> If you are self-supporting, with a separate address from your parents,
>
> and cannot be claimed as a dependent on their taxes, then I wouldn't
> think their assets would have any impact on what you qualify for.

I think you have to be self-supporting for at least two years now.

jean and bill
July 20th 03, 08:36 PM
In article >,
says...
> I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets
>
If you are self-supporting, with a separate address from your parents,
and cannot be claimed as a dependent on their taxes, then I wouldn't
think their assets would have any impact on what you qualify for.

Jeannie
--
To reply to me, remove *spamenot* from address.

jean and bill
July 20th 03, 08:36 PM
In article >,
says...
> I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets
>
If you are self-supporting, with a separate address from your parents,
and cannot be claimed as a dependent on their taxes, then I wouldn't
think their assets would have any impact on what you qualify for.

Jeannie
--
To reply to me, remove *spamenot* from address.

Heather Jones
July 20th 03, 08:56 PM
Dude! It wasn't me! It was jean and bill who wrote:
: In article >,
: says...
:> I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
:> parents income and assets
: If you are self-supporting, with a separate address from your parents,
: and cannot be claimed as a dependent on their taxes, then I wouldn't
: think their assets would have any impact on what you qualify for.

In NC, at least, it does. They are very strict about your parents
finances counting as potential help for college until you are a certain
age (I suppose that's 23, but I graduated college before then, and it
counted every year, even when I was fully self-sufficient and not even
living on campus anymore -- and even though my parents didn't make much,
I still didn't qualify for any grants, only loans, after my sister
graduated from college in my first year.)

--heather
who was obviously not an english major

--
Heather Jones heather_jones(at)pobox(dot)com
http://www.haphazard.org http://www.savorysecrets.com

Heather Jones
July 20th 03, 08:56 PM
Dude! It wasn't me! It was jean and bill who wrote:
: In article >,
: says...
:> I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
:> parents income and assets
: If you are self-supporting, with a separate address from your parents,
: and cannot be claimed as a dependent on their taxes, then I wouldn't
: think their assets would have any impact on what you qualify for.

In NC, at least, it does. They are very strict about your parents
finances counting as potential help for college until you are a certain
age (I suppose that's 23, but I graduated college before then, and it
counted every year, even when I was fully self-sufficient and not even
living on campus anymore -- and even though my parents didn't make much,
I still didn't qualify for any grants, only loans, after my sister
graduated from college in my first year.)

--heather
who was obviously not an english major

--
Heather Jones heather_jones(at)pobox(dot)com
http://www.haphazard.org http://www.savorysecrets.com

Karen Wheless
July 20th 03, 11:08 PM
> You are correct, there is no guarantee that you will get higher pay
> with a four year degree. With American jobs being exported overseas,
> and wages tumbling, you might spend 8 years obtaining a degree that is
> worth nothing in terms of obtaining a better "job." Once again I ask
> you, have you ever thought of becoming a pharmacist?

Unfortunately, getting a pharmacy degree is fairly difficult unless you
are willing/able to go to school full time for 4-5 years. I have a
degree in chemistry, and I was hoping to get a pharmacy degree, hoping
that I could go part time for a while. Nope. You have to do full time,
at least at all the schools I checked. Part time or night classes are
not offered. Pharmacy schools are very rigid in terms of when you take
which classes and at what time.

If this isn't true everywhere, I'd love to know about it. I think
pharmacy is a promising career, and unlike my job, you can do it
anywhere in the U.S., a major bonus. And I think it has more
opportunities than my so-called professional career that required a
couple of graduate degrees.

Karen

Karen Wheless
July 20th 03, 11:08 PM
> You are correct, there is no guarantee that you will get higher pay
> with a four year degree. With American jobs being exported overseas,
> and wages tumbling, you might spend 8 years obtaining a degree that is
> worth nothing in terms of obtaining a better "job." Once again I ask
> you, have you ever thought of becoming a pharmacist?

Unfortunately, getting a pharmacy degree is fairly difficult unless you
are willing/able to go to school full time for 4-5 years. I have a
degree in chemistry, and I was hoping to get a pharmacy degree, hoping
that I could go part time for a while. Nope. You have to do full time,
at least at all the schools I checked. Part time or night classes are
not offered. Pharmacy schools are very rigid in terms of when you take
which classes and at what time.

If this isn't true everywhere, I'd love to know about it. I think
pharmacy is a promising career, and unlike my job, you can do it
anywhere in the U.S., a major bonus. And I think it has more
opportunities than my so-called professional career that required a
couple of graduate degrees.

Karen

George
July 21st 03, 01:04 AM
"Karen Wheless" > wrote in message
et...
> > You are correct, there is no guarantee that you will get higher pay
> > with a four year degree. With American jobs being exported overseas,
> > and wages tumbling, you might spend 8 years obtaining a degree that is
> > worth nothing in terms of obtaining a better "job." Once again I ask
> > you, have you ever thought of becoming a pharmacist?
>
> Unfortunately, getting a pharmacy degree is fairly difficult unless you
> are willing/able to go to school full time for 4-5 years. I have a

And apparently recently even more difficult at least in PA. I was at at
party the other day and asked one of my friend's kids what he was doing. He
said he was working on his doctorate in pharmacy. He said recently it was
made a requirement to obtain licensing.


> degree in chemistry, and I was hoping to get a pharmacy degree, hoping
> that I could go part time for a while. Nope. You have to do full time,
> at least at all the schools I checked. Part time or night classes are
> not offered. Pharmacy schools are very rigid in terms of when you take
> which classes and at what time.
>
> If this isn't true everywhere, I'd love to know about it. I think
> pharmacy is a promising career, and unlike my job, you can do it
> anywhere in the U.S., a major bonus. And I think it has more
> opportunities than my so-called professional career that required a
> couple of graduate degrees.
>
> Karen

George
July 21st 03, 01:04 AM
"Karen Wheless" > wrote in message
et...
> > You are correct, there is no guarantee that you will get higher pay
> > with a four year degree. With American jobs being exported overseas,
> > and wages tumbling, you might spend 8 years obtaining a degree that is
> > worth nothing in terms of obtaining a better "job." Once again I ask
> > you, have you ever thought of becoming a pharmacist?
>
> Unfortunately, getting a pharmacy degree is fairly difficult unless you
> are willing/able to go to school full time for 4-5 years. I have a

And apparently recently even more difficult at least in PA. I was at at
party the other day and asked one of my friend's kids what he was doing. He
said he was working on his doctorate in pharmacy. He said recently it was
made a requirement to obtain licensing.


> degree in chemistry, and I was hoping to get a pharmacy degree, hoping
> that I could go part time for a while. Nope. You have to do full time,
> at least at all the schools I checked. Part time or night classes are
> not offered. Pharmacy schools are very rigid in terms of when you take
> which classes and at what time.
>
> If this isn't true everywhere, I'd love to know about it. I think
> pharmacy is a promising career, and unlike my job, you can do it
> anywhere in the U.S., a major bonus. And I think it has more
> opportunities than my so-called professional career that required a
> couple of graduate degrees.
>
> Karen

Kathy
July 21st 03, 01:21 AM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
> Hello,
>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program, theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like 2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.

I don't understand why you can't get financial aid until you're 23.
It sounds like you've been supporting yourself for several years now
and you're not a minor. You should be able to get aid and loans on
your own.


>
> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.)

I hate to break it to you but the "leisure life" and your other goals
( health insurance and the "pre-owned lexus" ) are incompatible,
especially at this point in your life. Work your ass off now because
it will be MUCH harder later. Later you will still have a full-time
job and possibly a spouse and kids. Even if you don't have a family,
you will be older so it will be harder ( or at least *seem* harder )
to live in a crummy apartment and eat peanut butter sandwiches 7 days
a week.

It's been my experience that Corporate America screws the non-degreed
employees. Furthermore, Corporate America rarely goes out of its way
to help you with tuition and ( more importantly ) time to attend
classes and study. You don't have to join the ranks of the
perpetually-stressed-out employees. You could stay in your present job
and enjoy a simple lifestyle. Of course, that won't guarantee you
health care. You can also start your own business. Of course, then
your stress level will be right through the roof.

I suggest you re-investigate getting grants and loans, share an
apartment, work part-time and get college done ASAP.

Oh and one last thing: if you don't like nursing, don't do it. In a
few years, 40K won't seem like that much to you.

Good luck!
Kathy

Kathy
July 21st 03, 01:21 AM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
> Hello,
>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program, theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like 2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.

I don't understand why you can't get financial aid until you're 23.
It sounds like you've been supporting yourself for several years now
and you're not a minor. You should be able to get aid and loans on
your own.


>
> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.)

I hate to break it to you but the "leisure life" and your other goals
( health insurance and the "pre-owned lexus" ) are incompatible,
especially at this point in your life. Work your ass off now because
it will be MUCH harder later. Later you will still have a full-time
job and possibly a spouse and kids. Even if you don't have a family,
you will be older so it will be harder ( or at least *seem* harder )
to live in a crummy apartment and eat peanut butter sandwiches 7 days
a week.

It's been my experience that Corporate America screws the non-degreed
employees. Furthermore, Corporate America rarely goes out of its way
to help you with tuition and ( more importantly ) time to attend
classes and study. You don't have to join the ranks of the
perpetually-stressed-out employees. You could stay in your present job
and enjoy a simple lifestyle. Of course, that won't guarantee you
health care. You can also start your own business. Of course, then
your stress level will be right through the roof.

I suggest you re-investigate getting grants and loans, share an
apartment, work part-time and get college done ASAP.

Oh and one last thing: if you don't like nursing, don't do it. In a
few years, 40K won't seem like that much to you.

Good luck!
Kathy

Karen Wheless
July 21st 03, 01:33 AM
> > > You are correct, there is no guarantee that you will get higher pay
> > > with a four year degree. With American jobs being exported overseas,
> > > and wages tumbling, you might spend 8 years obtaining a degree that is
> > > worth nothing in terms of obtaining a better "job." Once again I ask
> > > you, have you ever thought of becoming a pharmacist?
> >
> > Unfortunately, getting a pharmacy degree is fairly difficult unless you
> > are willing/able to go to school full time for 4-5 years. I have a
>
> And apparently recently even more difficult at least in PA. I was at at
> party the other day and asked one of my friend's kids what he was doing. He
> said he was working on his doctorate in pharmacy. He said recently it was
> made a requirement to obtain licensing.

A doctorate in pharmacy isn't exactly like a doctorate in other fields.
You can get the doctorate in 5 years which includes the normal 4 years
of college, so it only takes an additional year if you start as a
pharmacy major in your freshman year.

The "doctorate" is now the standard pharmacy degree - most states
require it now. But the way to get it is very standardized - it's very
difficult to "break into" pharmacy if you already have a college degree,
already have a degree in a similar field like chemistry, etc. To get a
degree in pharmacy, you have to do it "their way".

If I were to get a pharmacy degree, even though I have a master's degree
in chemistry, I would probably still have to go back and retake a lot of
classes, because they won't accept anything but "official" pharmacy
classwork. It would probably take me 3-4 years, going to school full
time during the day. I haven't found any programs that allow part-time
or evening classes.

Karen

Karen Wheless
July 21st 03, 01:33 AM
> > > You are correct, there is no guarantee that you will get higher pay
> > > with a four year degree. With American jobs being exported overseas,
> > > and wages tumbling, you might spend 8 years obtaining a degree that is
> > > worth nothing in terms of obtaining a better "job." Once again I ask
> > > you, have you ever thought of becoming a pharmacist?
> >
> > Unfortunately, getting a pharmacy degree is fairly difficult unless you
> > are willing/able to go to school full time for 4-5 years. I have a
>
> And apparently recently even more difficult at least in PA. I was at at
> party the other day and asked one of my friend's kids what he was doing. He
> said he was working on his doctorate in pharmacy. He said recently it was
> made a requirement to obtain licensing.

A doctorate in pharmacy isn't exactly like a doctorate in other fields.
You can get the doctorate in 5 years which includes the normal 4 years
of college, so it only takes an additional year if you start as a
pharmacy major in your freshman year.

The "doctorate" is now the standard pharmacy degree - most states
require it now. But the way to get it is very standardized - it's very
difficult to "break into" pharmacy if you already have a college degree,
already have a degree in a similar field like chemistry, etc. To get a
degree in pharmacy, you have to do it "their way".

If I were to get a pharmacy degree, even though I have a master's degree
in chemistry, I would probably still have to go back and retake a lot of
classes, because they won't accept anything but "official" pharmacy
classwork. It would probably take me 3-4 years, going to school full
time during the day. I haven't found any programs that allow part-time
or evening classes.

Karen

Shashay Doofray
July 21st 03, 02:00 AM
Don't put too much faith in education. I have an MBA and am working at a
pet shop for $7 per hour.


SD

Shashay Doofray
July 21st 03, 02:00 AM
Don't put too much faith in education. I have an MBA and am working at a
pet shop for $7 per hour.


SD

Colt
July 21st 03, 03:56 AM
The most important thing you can do is figure how you really want to
spend yor work life. Don't go into nursing just because you can make
$40,000 after 2 years of education--it's not worth it if you don't love
it (I'm an RN--for 18 years--I'm dedicated and I love/hate it. Don't go
into nursing if you're not passionate about it, you won't last a year).

Ned Flanders
July 21st 03, 04:23 AM
jean and bill > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> says...
> > I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> > parents income and assets
> >
> If you are self-supporting, with a separate address from your parents,
> and cannot be claimed as a dependent on their taxes, then I wouldn't
> think their assets would have any impact on what you qualify for.
>
> Jeannie


I have no idea what your talking about, but I will tell you what you
need to do and how to do it because I think that is how it
is--whatever that is in the first place.

Great advise, thannnnnnks.

Ned Flanders
July 21st 03, 04:30 AM
Heather Jones > wrote in message >...
> Dude! It wasn't me! It was jean and bill who wrote:
> : In article >,
> : says...
> :> I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> :> parents income and assets
> : If you are self-supporting, with a separate address from your parents,
> : and cannot be claimed as a dependent on their taxes, then I wouldn't
> : think their assets would have any impact on what you qualify for.
>
> In NC, at least, it does. They are very strict about your parents
> finances counting as potential help for college until you are a certain
> age (I suppose that's 23, but I graduated college before then, and it
> counted every year, even when I was fully self-sufficient and not even
> living on campus anymore -- and even though my parents didn't make much,
> I still didn't qualify for any grants, only loans, after my sister
> graduated from college in my first year.)
>
> --heather
> who was obviously not an english major


Considering the first thing any aid seeking college student fills out
is a FAFSA, it is just about standard in each state.

Cheers,

Ned

Xenia
July 21st 03, 04:58 AM
What an irresponsible thing to suggest. It seems you are not sure what
to do, trying evaluate some paths for your future: an admirable thing
to do. Nevertheless, you are reasonably stable, earn enough to support
yourself, your cats and probably to put some aside. Only completely
heartless people treat pets as if they were furniture: while they are
convenient, they have them, getting rid of them as soon as a problem
arises. No way to treat ANY living thing. Pets sometimes are the ONLY
thing that can keep you sane ;-))

Student, and her two cats



> Get rid of the cats. You don't make enough money to properly care for one,
> let alone multiple, pets. And if you're on the brink of major changes in
> your life, stability isn't going to be in cards for possibly several years.
>
> >After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> >seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation,
> and
> >I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years.
>
> Things are the same as they were in high school because you haven't done
> anything different since high school. They will be the same in 3 more
> years, they will be the same for the rest of your life, unless you do
> something different, until you take on the responsibility for your life,
> just like any other adult.
>
> >I'm also afraid
> >a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income.
>
> The average person can't pay for a major hospitalization/illness - you could
> start feeling poorly, go to the doctor, and discover you have something like
> leukemia. A few years and a million or two dollars (literally) later, you
> could be cured and live out a normal life. But pay for your treatment out
> of your own earnings? That's why there's medical insurance. If you don't
> have medical insurance, or belong to an HMO, get that taken care of.
>
> ?Oh, and
> >the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> >lexus.
>
>
> You "need" an education, perhaps, or to acquire a marketable skill, or maybe
> just a different job. You don't "need" an expensive used car that you can't
> afford.
>
> >So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> I think you're 21 with no obligations (footloose and fancy free) and need to
> get on with your life whether you go to school or not. How about a summer
> as a deckhand on the Great Lakes? Or as a waiter at some resort. Or on a
> cruise ship. Or as a firefighter in a national forest. Join the military.
> Be a lifeguard on a beach. Play piano in a bar. Be a janitor in a
> hospital. A short order cook. Play minor league ball. There are tens of
> thousands of job titles in this country, spread over millions of square
> miles. Look around a little, try a couple out.

Nolan McKinney
July 21st 03, 06:58 AM
I mostly inclined to say thanks for any and all advice, but I think some of
your comments sucked too much.

----- Original Message -----
From: "lpogoda" >
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: 20k blues


>
> Nolan McKinney wrote in message ...
> >
> >1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program,
> theoretically,
> >I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> >advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted
> into
> >the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes
and
> >"going from there."
>
> You go to college to get an education, you go to a something like a trade
> school to learn a skill. There's a tendency to treat colleges like trade
> schools, but they're not. The non-nursing classes are part of your
> education. I suppose they're also used as a screening tool - if you can't
> pass an English or basic algebra class, no one thinks you'll do too well
at
> anatomy.

My problem is, the school is deceptive about the capacity of their nursing
program. An advisor explained to me they use a point system to determine
who is accepted. First, students are tested (I scored above 95% on this
test) this is where the majority of points can be earned. More points are
awarded for completion of academic courses from the program. I was assured
I would be accepted if I applied based on my test scores. I also have a 3.5
gpa from a semester I completed at this school back in 2001. MY PROBLEM
WITH THE PLACE, is this. I couldn't get any data on how many students are
not admitted into the program who have similarly high scores. Stories
abound about excellent students who have completed all of the non-nursing
classes and scored well on the test who have been on the waiting list for
years. My advisor told me there was no waiting list and this is false. It
would not be in his best interest to tell me "well you can earn all the
points possible but your gonna remain at the bottom of the list with
humpteen other people." Anyway in rhetrospect I shouldn't have expected
anything else from the advisor. I know I should get unbiased information on
matters like this. In summary, I have no problem with the fact that I would
have to take non-nursing classes (see key words enjoy, languages, business,
classes, in my choice 2.) I have a problem with advisors being, I quote
myself "less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted
into the program."

>
> >Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
> >higher education is a business like anything else
>
> Look at that - you've learned something already. Business is what makes
the
> world go 'round, and a college has expenses just like everyone else. NO
> ONE, including a college, can afford to just give away whatever it is they
> "do".

Did I say I wanted something for nothing? I do want my money's worth. I
don't think advisors should lie and pep poeple up about being accepted into
programs just to fill up general classes.

>
> >and they just want my
> >money.
>
> Not quite. If that were the case, you could attend as long as you were
> willing and able to pay. But you can't - they make you matriculate, and
> they will flunk you out if you don't meet a minimum level of performance.

Actually, I beleive I could register every semester and take classes there
for the rest of my life if I wanted to. And you don't flunk _out_, they
have a battery of "development" courses for flunkers. They have math 070.

>
> >The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
> >40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> >competitive program.
>
> Speaking as someone who worked his way through college and who has taught
at
> the local college, it's not a job that will cause you to flunk a class,
it's
> a lack of effort or a lack of aptitude. You have to decide which is more
> important, jam today or jam tomorrow, and arrange your affairs
accordingly.
> Meaning if you can't study enough to stay in school and work 40+ hours a
> week and you want to stay in school, you have to cut down on the working
> hours. Which in turn means all of the usual things college students do to
> cut down expenses - living with parents, or roommates for instance. But
if
> you don't have the aptitude for a particular field

I don't want to enter a competitive, inflexible program,
(I'm a programmer, there
> are loads of people out there who just don't seem to "get it" when it
comes
> to programming no matter how much they study) it doesn't much matter.

People in India, China, and the Phillipines are getting it, probably better
than you.

>
> >I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> >parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems
like
> 2
> >years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and
the
> >hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>
>
> If you don't want to be a nurse, then don't waste your time and money
> learning to become one.

yep

>
> >2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> >I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community
college
> >and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This
is
> >where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> >stress too much over classes.
>
> Nothing wrong with stressing over classes as long as it doesn't get
> pathological. After all, this is important stuff that can change the
course
> of your entire life.

yep, i like that

>
> >I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> >business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase
> my
> >financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which
will
> >be no gaurantee of higher pay.
>
> There are no guarantees, other than something like it's guaranteed that
> nothing will change if you do nothing.
>
> >I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> >is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> >promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
> >
> >3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> >better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me
after
> >some time.
>
> In spite of the cynics (a few who even post here) and unlike publicly
funded
> education, promotions in business tend to be linked to performance and
> results, but you also need certain qualifications to even be considered.
If
> you're talking about office type jobs, a degree can make a huge
difference.
> At your age, being in school and working towards a degree can make a huge
> difference.
>
> >Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
> >a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay
tuition.
> >This seems hopelessly idealistic
>
> Lots of companies pay tuition, up to a certain maximum per year and
subject
> to maintaining a minimum grade in the class. What it boils down to is
that
> going to school on the company's dime could take 8 years to do a couple
> years of full time shooling. If you wait until you can't go any further
> before you start, you could find youself working on an associates degree
and
> pushing 40. Nother actually wrong with that, but most people with an
> associates get it far earlier in life than that.
>
> >I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> >Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> >stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>
>
> Get rid of the cats. You don't make enough money to properly care for
one,
> let alone multiple, pets. And if you're on the brink of major changes in
> your life, stability isn't going to be in cards for possibly several
years.

Tongue in cheek, I think you have a problem with verbal irony. None the
less I'm putting the cats in the garbage disposal now at your advice, It'll
be the best thing I ever did because they were growing up fast and I was
getting concerned about how I was gonna pay for THEIR college.

>
> >After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it
just
> >seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation,
> and
> >I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years.
>
> Things are the same as they were in high school because you haven't done
> anything different since high school. They will be the same in 3 more
> years, they will be the same for the rest of your life, unless you do
> something different, until you take on the responsibility for your life,
> just like any other adult.

I have excellent references available from pharmacists, managers, and
co-workers. I also appear somewhat stable and I've never called in sick.
I'd like to be farther along, but the last 3 years have not been a total
waste.

>
> >I'm also afraid
> >a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income.
>
> The average person can't pay for a major hospitalization/illness - you
could
> start feeling poorly, go to the doctor, and discover you have something
like
> leukemia. A few years and a million or two dollars (literally) later, you
> could be cured and live out a normal life. But pay for your treatment out
> of your own earnings? That's why there's medical insurance. If you don't
> have medical insurance, or belong to an HMO, get that taken care of.
>
> ?Oh, and
> >the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> >lexus.
>
>
> You "need" an education, perhaps, or to acquire a marketable skill, or
maybe
> just a different job. You don't "need" an expensive used car that you
can't
> afford.

The lexus thing was tongue and cheek, but I'm demonstrating that I may be
frustrated at my current income, and thus makes choice 1 more appealing than
choice 2. I don't like my job now, might as well make 40k at a job I don't
like than 20. But no, I'm doubting more and more that I'll go the nursing
route.

>
> >So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> I think you're 21 with no obligations (footloose and fancy free) and need
to
> get on with your life whether you go to school or not. How about a summer
> as a deckhand on the Great Lakes? Or as a waiter at some resort. Or on a
> cruise ship. Or as a firefighter in a national forest. Join the
military.
> Be a lifeguard on a beach. Play piano in a bar. Be a janitor in a
> hospital. A short order cook. Play minor league ball. There are tens of
> thousands of job titles in this country, spread over millions of square
> miles. Look around a little, try a couple out.

These suggestions wouldn't move me on in life (forward) but more sideways
than anything. I will note I've been offered a stripping job which could
pay quite well. But at his point in my life, I want my efforts to lay a
foundation that I can build on.

Kathy
July 21st 03, 08:01 AM
(The Avocado Avenger) wrote in message >...
> (Kathy) writes:
>
> >I don't understand why you can't get financial aid until you're 23.
> >It sounds like you've been supporting yourself for several years now
> >and you're not a minor. You should be able to get aid and loans on
> >your own.
>
> I had to claim I was married to get financial aid when I was 18-21, back
> in the 1990s. My parents had essentially kicked me out of the house and I
> was living with a boyfriend, and had enough for one year of college. But
> to get financial aid I needed my parents tax forms and such for the
> applications because they assumed your parents were supporting you. When
> I explained they weren't, I was told in no uncertain terms it was too damn
> bad, so many kids in the past lied to get financial aid *and* parental aid
> that they no longer believe anyone who claims the parents aren't helping.
> Unless you're married or parents are deceased, they will assume your
> parents are helping even if they aren't, until you're 21 or so, depending
> on the state.
> Then it turned out the crappy college I attended coupled with the joke
> that a degree makes a difference (when it often does not), I should have
> just gone to work.
>
> * * *
> Stacia * * http://world.std.com/~stacia/
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
> your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall


When I started my career, I thought the same thing. I was making
considerably less than people around me that started work right after
high school. But you know what? In five years that all turned around
because they had topped out and my salary was and still is climbing.
Those people either accepted their "glass ceiling" or knocked
themselves out to get degrees while still working full-time and
raising children. And if you think a degree takes a long time to get
when you're taking 4-5 classes at a time, you should see how long it
takes when you can only squeeze in 1-2 classes at a time.

Did the degree affect the quality of their work? No. Did it affect the
quantity of their pay? Hell, yes. Are those two facts fair? No.

Don't get me wrong - there's lots of ways to make money in this
country and a degree is only one path. But not everyone is a real
entrepreneur or a great saleman. Not everyone has a burning artistic
or athletic talent. The rest of us have to find some way to
distinguish ourselves. With more and more people getting degrees, the
college degree of the future will be like the high school diploma of
today: the bare minimum for the majority of jobs.

George
July 21st 03, 03:01 PM
"Kathy" > wrote in message
om...
> "Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message
>...
> > Hello,
> >
> > 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program,
theoretically,
> > I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> > advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted
into
> > the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes
and
> > "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local
place of
> > higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> > money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and
working
> > 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> > competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of
my
> > parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems
like 2
> > years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and
the
> > hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>
> I don't understand why you can't get financial aid until you're 23.
> It sounds like you've been supporting yourself for several years now
> and you're not a minor. You should be able to get aid and loans on
> your own.
>
>
> >
> > 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school
after
> > I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community
college
> > and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.)
>
> I hate to break it to you but the "leisure life" and your other goals
> ( health insurance and the "pre-owned lexus" ) are incompatible,
> especially at this point in your life. Work your ass off now because
> it will be MUCH harder later. Later you will still have a full-time
> job and possibly a spouse and kids. Even if you don't have a family,
> you will be older so it will be harder ( or at least *seem* harder )
> to live in a crummy apartment and eat peanut butter sandwiches 7 days
> a week.
>
> It's been my experience that Corporate America screws the non-degreed
> employees. Furthermore, Corporate America rarely goes out of its way
> to help you with tuition and ( more importantly ) time to attend
> classes and study. You don't have to join the ranks of the

I think there is little distinction between degreed/non-degreed employees in
the past ten years. Also the general business situation is that it is a
good idea to screw anyone (employees, business partners, stockholders etc).

I found that tuition reimbursement to be of great value a long time ago. As
time went on it was of little value because of the demands of my job. My
employer demanded a minimum ten hour day six days per week with frequent
Sundays becoming normal. There was just no time to attempt additional
education.


> perpetually-stressed-out employees. You could stay in your present job
> and enjoy a simple lifestyle. Of course, that won't guarantee you
> health care. You can also start your own business. Of course, then
> your stress level will be right through the roof.
>
> I suggest you re-investigate getting grants and loans, share an
> apartment, work part-time and get college done ASAP.
>
> Oh and one last thing: if you don't like nursing, don't do it. In a
> few years, 40K won't seem like that much to you.

I agree with this. Do not do something merely because a guidance counselor
tells you it has the highest salary potential for you. I have seen lots of
unhappy and often not very competent people because they pursued a career
they didn't like.


>
> Good luck!
> Kathy

Karen Wheless
July 21st 03, 06:15 PM
> >If I were to get a pharmacy degree, even though I have a master's degree
> >in chemistry, I would probably still have to go back and retake a lot of
> >classes, because they won't accept anything but "official" pharmacy
> >classwork. It would probably take me 3-4 years, going to school full
> >time during the day. I haven't found any programs that allow part-time
> >or evening classes.
> >
>
> Would it be worth it, Karen? It seems that pharmacists now
> take pills out of a large bottle and count them into a small
> bottle.
>
> I cannot see much scope for the profession of pharmacist in
> the future, I cannot see the number of pharmacy jobs growing
> in the future.

Pharmacists do have a bigger role in certain types of medications - they
dispense things like cancer medications (which may have to be dispensed
on site) and they also keep track of medication interations, etc. And
some pharmacists work at hospitals and other places where they do more
demanding work. The background for pharmacy is very rigorous, although
I'm not sure how much is actually used on the job.

Supposedly, there is a growing demand for pharmacists. As the
population ages, there will be more people taking multiple medications,
and dealing with interactions will be more and more of an issue. Also,
with the pressure on insurance companies and doctors to spend less time
with patients, a lot of people who have questions about medicines go to
pharmacists instead of doctors. And there's a demand for pharmacists
who are good with computers, as they become more important in detecting
interactions, dealing with insurance companies, etc. A lot of older
pharmacists aren't all that computer literate. And supposedly it's a
job that can't be moved overseas (although that's always questionable)

However, in my case, I don't think I'd particularly like pharmacy. It
sounds tedious and dull to me, and the classwork is mostly pure
memorization. But it's a job that can be done anywhere. Right now, I
am pretty desperate to get out of New York, but it's becoming more and
more difficult to find a job in research chemistry that's not located in
NY/NJ or Boston or California. The last time I went to a job fair at a
professional meeting, 90-95% of the jobs were in one of those areas.
Research jobs are becoming more and more concentrated in those few
areas, companies have factories in other areas but not research. (The
job I was applying for in Delaware for example - they closed the
facility and moved it to New Jersey. Another company has closed a
facility in the Midwest and moved to Boston. I can't figure out the
reasoning behind this.) But the salaries are not keeping up with the
cost of living in these areas, particularly for non-PhD chemists like
me. It's becoming more and more miserable to live here.

I was hoping to find some kind of job that would use my chemistry
background, but where I'd be readily able to get a job in some other
area of the country. I considered pharmacy because I thought my
background would be a shortcut and I might be able to get a degree in
just a couple of years, or part-time at night. Unfortunately, that's
not the case. I've also considered teaching and nursing, but neither
one of them really suit my personality - I'm not a "people" person and
my one attempt at part-time teaching was a disaster. I thought pharmacy
would be a better fit, even if I didn't love the job.

Karen

Neil
July 21st 03, 07:05 PM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...

With a few minor details changed here and there, I've been through
exactly what you've been through. It took me a long time and some
unsuccessful attempts to finally get in school and graduate. I
recommend that you focus on school and graduating ASAP.

> Hello,
>
> I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some advice.
>
> I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about 20k
> at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
> little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.

$20k isn't going to get you far these days, especially if you
eventually marry, want to buy a home, new car etc. So I suggest you go
back to school.

(snip)

> My problem is: where do I go from here?
>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program,

(snip)

>I don't wanna be a nurse,

Then forget about nursing.

> but it seems like 2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.

Don't do it. Many people get into jobs they dislike, then are trapped
because the money's too good.

> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.)

I suggest you quit your job or else transition ASAP from your job to
school. Make going to school your job, no matter what it costs and
even if you have to live with your parents to afford school. If your
parents are willing and able to help with tuition, accept their help.

If you stay in your current job, you'll just get stuck there.

Also, in coming years many things will probably happen to you
(marriage, parenthood, etc.) and all those things will make it harder
to go back to school. You're young and single now, so make going to
school your job.

>This is
> where my heart seems to be.

Then go back to school.

>I could maintain my current budget and not
> stress too much over classes.

One danger here is that if you keep working fulltime, that will take
most of your time and energy, so if you go back to school parttime,
having a fulltime job will make it hard to focus on your schoolwork,
which should be your top priority.

I recommend you set up appointments with the admissions, counseling,
and financial aid folks at the school you want to graduate from. Ask
them to help you map out a plan to get from where you are now to
graduation day. Then follow that plan.

That's what I did. The school folks told me what to do, I did it, and
it worked.

> I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
> financal worth,

Education in any field increases your financial worth.

>it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> be no gaurantee of higher pay.

I think through the process of becoming better educated, you will
become more aware of career opportunities and better able to find and
get better-paying jobs. Been there, done that.

> I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.

IOW, a dead-end job. So there's no reason to stay in it!

You're already stuck, so get yourself unstuck.

> 3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> some time.

But a bigger city will have higher cost of living and that will eat up
the salary gain. And because you'll need more money to survive, you'll
be stuck in your job even more than you are now.

> Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
> a degree.

But that's exactly where you're at now. You're already in a dead-end
job.

>I might even end up working for a company that will pay tuition.

You might, you might not. If you want to work for a company like that,
then go ahead and find a job with that benefit.

However, you'd still have the problem of devoting your time and energy
to a fulltime job, while school would get short shrift and be a
parttime thing done only with leftover time and energy. If school is
what you want to do, make school your fulltime job.

> This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> stability is important while my cats are growing up.

LOL! Actually, my wife and I got cats when we both went back to
school, because we figured they'd be fine, even if we weren't home
much. Worked out fine.

> After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best.

Writing can be a good way to think things through.

But I wouldn't hesitate about school. Make school your top priority,
then make everything else a lower priority.

While you're in school, I also suggest that if you have to have a
partrime job, accept only parttime work that relates to your education
and career interests. When I went back to school, that's what I did.
It helped me stay focussed on my studies and also helped build my
resume and make job connections.

> But, it just
> seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation, and
> I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years.

You can't change the past, so forget about it. But you can change the
present and future.

> I'm also afraid
> a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income.

Yep. BTW, one of the pleasant discoveries of returning to school is
finding out that health insurance via the university was dirt cheap. I
was tempted to stay in school, just to keep the cheap insurance!

>Oh, and
> the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> lexus.

I realize you're kidding, but I'll point out that cars and other
possessions will just drain your wallet and reinforce you're being
trapped in a dead-end job.

> So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.

School should be your fulltime job. You'll never regret being better
educated.

And in terms of $$$, I'll add that when I quit my dead-end job and
went back to school, within a few years my income doubled and I had a
much better (in every way) job also. I didn't plan that, but going
back to school made me better educated, better qualified, and more
desirable to hire, plus I was better able to find and get
better-paying jobs.

If you remain trapped in your dead-end job, I bet you'll resent more
and more as time goes on and wish you had gone back to school. So do
whatever it takes to make school your fulltime job, even if you have
to use student loans or other tools to meet your goals.

As I said before, I've been there, done that with what you're
contemplating. Going back to school was one of the best decisions I
ever made. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner!

lpogoda
July 21st 03, 08:31 PM
"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
> I mostly inclined to say thanks for any and all advice, but I think some of
> your comments sucked too much.

Suit yourself - free advice, or anything else, is worth what it costs.
[[snip]]
> > I think you're 21 with no obligations (footloose and fancy free) and need
> to
> > get on with your life whether you go to school or not. How about a summer
> > as a deckhand on the Great Lakes? Or as a waiter at some resort. Or on a
> > cruise ship. Or as a firefighter in a national forest. Join the
> military.
> > Be a lifeguard on a beach. Play piano in a bar. Be a janitor in a
> > hospital. A short order cook. Play minor league ball. There are tens of
> > thousands of job titles in this country, spread over millions of square
> > miles. Look around a little, try a couple out.
>
> These suggestions wouldn't move me on in life (forward) but more sideways
> than anything. I will note I've been offered a stripping job which could
> pay quite well. But at his point in my life, I want my efforts to lay a
> foundation that I can build on.

Let's see, you spend a rather long and somewhat whiny post telling
complete strangers that you don't know what to do with your life and
asking for advice. I'm suggesting that you get to know yourself well
enough to decide what you want on your own. I'm suggesting you do
that by broadening your horizons, by trying different things, by
living in different places.

Sure that means you might have to take a small risk or two. Sure
it'll take longer than reading a paragraph in a newgroup. But let's
see, you got out of hight school 3 years ago, you can't get financial
aid until you're 23, it sounds like you're 20 or 21 and have a couple
of years before you think you can do some serious school.

So what's the problem - you have the time and you're not, by your own
account, doing anything with it anyway.

Edgar S.
July 21st 03, 08:36 PM
My impression is you r fairly happy doing whatever it is u do.


"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message >...
> Hello,
>
> I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some advice.
>
> I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about 20k
> at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
> little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>
> My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
> paid for before I graduated.
>
> My problem is: where do I go from here?
>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program, theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like 2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>
> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
> where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase my
> financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
>
> 3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
> a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay tuition.
> This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>
> After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation, and
> I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also afraid
> a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income. Oh, and
> the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> lexus.
>
> So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> Thanks,
> Nolan

July 21st 03, 09:56 PM
>If you stay in your current job, you'll just get stuck there.

What abt bar tending school? Im serious abt that
suggestion?

July 21st 03, 09:57 PM
>Education in any field increases your financial worth.

What abt the IT field?

Does everyone agree its a BAD place to go..... i.e get
training in?

IleneB
July 21st 03, 10:38 PM
Hi there, and some good questions you ask.

First of all, a disclosure. I'm an RN, and didn't much want to be one
(did it at age 28). I have no doubt that you could find a place in the
field that wasn't hospital/bedside, but a lot of what you "don't want"
is in most areas of the field, especially with only an A.D. degree.
That said, I've ended up working nights at a psychiatric hospital and
the tasks reasonably suit me. I have achieved most of my financial
goals and I don't hate my job. However, if you already know upfront
that you really don't want to do it, it's a pretty annoying field to be
in *only* for an increase in pay.

There are other areas in medicine that you can decide on, unless the
whole idea of medicine/other people is really distasteful. Imaging
tech, med tech, lab person. However, since you are already in the
pharmacy arena, how about pharmacy school? A real good future there.

Good luck in your decisions.

Ilene B

IleneB
July 21st 03, 10:46 PM
In article >, wrote:

> try to get a job that is
> not incredibly horrible, if you can. Also, save as much money as you
> can, so you can buy property someday in the future. In my opinion, it
> helps if one realizes that "work" isn't everything


He already has such a job, and I think that's pretty good for age 20 or
so.

A few people are fortunate to have a "career," that is, where their job
is more than a means to keep the roof over the head. I'm not one of
those people, and I've tried mightily in many areas. However, the OP
isn't talking about a meaningful career. He seems tempted by the siren
call of high-end consumption (the lexus) and that is something that no
$40K job is going to get him. You need serious bucks to be a high-end
consumer, and of course, I don't think it's a worthy or satisfying
goal, never mind that a regular job, high or low paid, is going to be
in the lexus world.

Oh, and the cats- one poster said to get rid of them. No! Pets are a
very satisfying part of life for many people. I trust the OP is taking
good care of his cats. He has enough money to take care of basic
business and pets. Pets are never a frugal choice, but they certainly
can make daily living a lot more pleasant and satisfying.

Ilene B

IleneB
July 21st 03, 10:47 PM
In article >, Karen
Wheless > wrote:

> f this isn't true everywhere, I'd love to know about it. I think
> pharmacy is a promising career


The Mass. College of Pharmacy in Boston I think has more flexibility.
Of course, you have to live in a very high-cost area to attend school.

Ilene B

IleneB
July 21st 03, 10:56 PM
In article >, Neil
> wrote:

> Education in any field increases your financial worth.


I think the above poster hears those old commercials intoning "To get a
good job, get a good education."

Education in general has become, as one perso pointed out, like a high
school diploma. I remember Clinton saying he wanted "everyone" to go to
college. Well, to what end?

Personally, I'd look at community college certification programs, union
apprenticeships, technical schools, some sort of skill, not study. I
dropped out of college after two years of liberal arts, not wanting to
drive a taxi or waitress with a degree and loans. I never regretted
dropping out. I've gone back to school three times for jobs- once to be
an RN, once for a degree in international health that I decided not to
follow up on, and a certificate in technical writing. I think people
are blinded by "education" as the way out of the dead end, and too
often it's just the way into a different dead end with huge loans.

Now, education for learning is another thing. But one can always audit
and self-teach. Hell, just read a good newspaper every day. But for
jobs, I think some real research is called for.

I remember a 1971 Newsweek cover (my high school graduation year) that
showed a young man in graduating cap and gown running a jackhammer. The
headline was "the liberal arts glut." Not much has changed there.

Ilene B

Nobody
July 22nd 03, 02:19 AM
Don't choose a career field just by the salary. If you don't care anything
about
nursing, then pursuing that choice would be a mistake in my opinion. Nursing
is a demanding field and the customers (patients) need someone dedicated to
what they do. Would you want a nurse taking care of you that is in it just
for
the money?

Since you don't like your current job, imagine working your current job at
double the salary. Would you want to stay there until retirement? If not,
then
why do you think switching to another field that isn't interesting would be
any
better? You'd make more, but you would eventually be unhappy again. As you
grow older, switching careers becomes harder and harder to do.

If you go with your option #2, you could spend time checking out careers
that
interest you. For instance, you could volunteer at the local hospital to see
what
nursing would be like. If you wanted to be a teacher, volunteer at a school.
Find
something you like to do. Meanwhile, save your money to pay for school and
have an emergency fund. Put some money away in an IRA if you can.

Don't worry so much about where you are now three years after high school
graduation. Many people go straight to college not knowing what career they
want. They end up switching majors several times and taking several extra
years to finish. You have the opportunity to figure out what you want to do
before starting! Look at it as an advantage! Worrying won't help you any!

Best of luck to you!

"Nolan McKinney" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I've been a fan of this group's archives for years. Now I need some
advice.
>
> I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making about about
20k
> at a job I got while in high school (retail pharmacy tech.) I can make a
> little extra money pulling shifts for temp agencies too.
>
> My rent is $545, usually around $50 for power and $25 for water. Car was
> paid for before I graduated.
>
> My problem is: where do I go from here?
>
> 1. I've thought about my community college's nursing program,
theoretically,
> I could double my income after completing 2 years of school. School
> advisors are less than forthright about one's chances of being accepted
into
> the program, they are big on completing all of the non-nursing classes and
> "going from there." Yep, I was disappointed to learn that my local place
of
> higher education is a business like anything else and they just want my
> money. The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and
working
> 40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> competitive program. I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like
2
> years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>
> 2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community
college
> and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
> where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> stress too much over classes. I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase
my
> financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> be no gaurantee of higher pay. I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
>
> 3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> some time. Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further
without
> a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay
tuition.
> This seems hopelessly idealistic, I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>
> After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation,
and
> I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years. I'm also
afraid
> a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income. Oh, and
> the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> lexus.
>
> So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> Thanks,
> Nolan
>
>

July 22nd 03, 02:27 AM
> wrote in message
...
> >If you stay in your current job, you'll just get stuck there.
>
> What abt bar tending school? Im serious abt that
> suggestion?


I did that years ago . . . a two week class, memorized 200 drink recipes.
Finished, went to a few clubs and looked at the crowd from the bartender's
perspective. Didn't take long to decide I didn't want to deal with
obnoxious drunks for a living. Oh, I did one private party, and geez, I
left early 'cause I found the guests (a bunch of "high dollar" North Dallas
types) unbearable . . . a prominant new car dealer regaled the other drunks
with all sorts of racist humor. Another one had a few faggot jokes; I
simply wasn't going to put up with that, so I just split. Didn't even tell
'em. Just left. "Phillips head metal fastener" 'em.
Anyway, I've chatted with other current and former bartenders, and it's
a job they wouldn't recommend either. But if you're really really really
into the bar scene, it just might be for you. But only if . . .
--Tock

lpogoda
July 22nd 03, 02:54 AM
Xenia wrote in message >...
>What an irresponsible thing to suggest. It seems you are not sure what
>to do, trying evaluate some paths for your future: an admirable thing
>to do. Nevertheless, you are reasonably stable, earn enough to support
>yourself, your cats and probably to put some aside. Only completely
>heartless people treat pets as if they were furniture: while they are
>convenient, they have them, getting rid of them as soon as a problem
>arises. No way to treat ANY living thing. Pets sometimes are the ONLY
>thing that can keep you sane ;-))
>
>Student, and her two cats
>


Pets are a wonderful thing to have. I've had at least one cat, and at times
as many as three, for the last 20 or 30 years. So I know that they do get
sick, and they do need medical care at times. A few cases in point:

I worked with a guy a few years ago who came in one day really bummed
because his cat needed radioactive iodine treatments (I think it was for
thyroid cancer). A thousand bucks up front, to _start_ treatment, or kitty
would die.

Another woman I worked with had two cats, and one came down with feline
leukemia. Any idea what that costs to treat?

One of my own cats, which one evening developed a lump in his side that
started to swell by the minute. An emergency trip to the vet, a quick
operation, and several hundred bucks saved the day.

Another cat I had, very young, came down with some sort of gastro-intestinal
infection, required daily trips to the vet for a week (each one paid for at
the time of the visit) and ultimately died of the illness?

Sure, most of the time it's a bag of cat food and a box of cat litter. But
an eye infection can come to several hundred bucks to treat, and add in the
routine exams and shots and someone on a limited income may not be able to
afford it. Of course, there are those unfeeling people who keep a pet
around until it starts getting old, or gets sick, and they let it die in
pain or have it put down when mere money could solve the problem.

I'm not suggesting that the original poster simply put the cat out the door,
or drive it out into the country and dump it by the side of the road. But
to my mind a responsible pet owner will also be willing and -able- to
shoulder the bills that come when something goes wrong, and it doesn't sound
like this guy would be able to do that, regardless of what he may want to
do.

I would also suggest that someone who doesn't have or can't afford medical
insurance for himself isn't in much of a financial position to take on the
costs of anything much more demanding than a goldfish or a house plant.

lpogoda
July 22nd 03, 03:01 AM
Nolan McKinney wrote in message ...
>
>These suggestions wouldn't move me on in life (forward) but more sideways
>than anything. I will note I've been offered a stripping job which could
>pay quite well. But at his point in my life, I want my efforts to lay a
>foundation that I can build on.
>


There you are. If you have the looks and the moves to be a part time
ecdysiast for a while, you could pay for school if that's what you want,
without worrying about financial aid.

lpogoda
July 22nd 03, 03:11 AM
Nolan McKinney wrote in message ...
>
>People in India, China, and the Phillipines are getting it, probably better
>than you.


I'd guess that there might be upwards of half a billion people on the planet
who could be programmers if they wanted to and had the opportunity. That
still leaves somewhere around six billion people who wouldn't fit the job,
simply because they don't have the aptitude for it, any more than I have an
aptitude for being a cop or a machinist. Not everyone can be good at
everything, and that's all I was trying to convey.

As for my personal skill level, it's pretty good. But I'm well aware that
there are a lot of people who are better at it than I am - I even know a few
of them personally. I'm sure that some of those programmers in India,
China, and the Phillipines as well as other places fall into the "better at
it than I am" category. I'm equally sure that some of them fall into the
"not as good at it as I am" category.

Chloe
July 22nd 03, 03:27 AM
"lpogoda" > wrote in message
...
><snip>
> I would also suggest that someone who doesn't have or can't afford medical
> insurance for himself isn't in much of a financial position to take on the
> costs of anything much more demanding than a goldfish or a house plant.

You don't know much about goldfish, do you?

Clue: Anectodal stories about a carnival fish that lived for 10 years in a
tiny bowl in filthy water notwithstanding, they're a *lot* of work to care
for properly and generally have a short life span because people allow them
to be poisoned in a toxic soup of their own waste. I spend a lot more time
maintaining my three fancy goldfish than I do my cats.

Of course, the point of your example is, I suppose, that if the goldfish
gets sick you just flush it down the toilet and get another one, but then
you obviously miss the point that there are a lot of people who feel that
cats and dogs are equally disposable. Certainly they can all be acquired for
almost nothing and there's a big oversupply.

C., who is happy to go to considerable trouble and/or expense keeping both
the fish and the cats healthy

Surfwospam
July 22nd 03, 04:57 AM
>Subject: Re: 20k blues
>From: (Karen Wheless)
>Date: 7/20/03 3:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> You are correct, there is no guarantee that you will get higher pay
>> with a four year degree. With American jobs being exported overseas,
>> and wages tumbling, you might spend 8 years obtaining a degree that is
>> worth nothing in terms of obtaining a better "job." Once again I ask
>> you, have you ever thought of becoming a pharmacist?
>
>Unfortunately, getting a pharmacy degree is fairly difficult unless you
>are willing/able to go to school full time for 4-5 years. I have a
>degree in chemistry, and I was hoping to get a pharmacy degree, hoping
>that I could go part time for a while. Nope. You have to do full time,
>at least at all the schools I checked. Part time or night classes are
>not offered. Pharmacy schools are very rigid in terms of when you take
>which classes and at what time.
>
>If this isn't true everywhere, I'd love to know about it. I think
>pharmacy is a promising career, and unlike my job, you can do it
>anywhere in the U.S., a major bonus. And I think it has more
>opportunities than my so-called professional career that required a
>couple of graduate degrees.
>
>Karen
>
>
>
>
>
>

Check out the University of Colorado's pharm school--not sure if it's the
Boulder or Denver campus. I met a woman a few months ago who is working
full-time (or part-time?) at her day job while going to pharm school at UC at
night? weekends?

Heather Jones
July 22nd 03, 05:05 AM
Dude! It wasn't me! It was lpogoda who wrote:
: Nolan McKinney wrote in message ...
:>People in India, China, and the Phillipines are getting it, probably better
:>than you.
<snip>
: As for my personal skill level, it's pretty good. But I'm well aware that
: there are a lot of people who are better at it than I am - I even know a few
: of them personally. I'm sure that some of those programmers in India,
: China, and the Phillipines as well as other places fall into the "better at
: it than I am" category. I'm equally sure that some of them fall into the
: "not as good at it as I am" category.

The only point that seems to matter to the ones sending them programming
jobs from the states is that they'll work for less money, not that
they're better or faster or whatever. Five programmers for the price of
one is an offer they just don't seem to be able to pass up.

--heather

--
Heather Jones heather_jones(at)pobox(dot)com
http://www.haphazard.org http://www.savorysecrets.com

silvasurfa
July 22nd 03, 12:16 PM
"IleneB" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, wrote:
>
> > try to get a job that is
> > not incredibly horrible, if you can. Also, save as much money as you
> > can, so you can buy property someday in the future. In my opinion, it
> > helps if one realizes that "work" isn't everything
>
>
> He already has such a job, and I think that's pretty good for age 20 or
> so.
>
> A few people are fortunate to have a "career," that is, where their job
> is more than a means to keep the roof over the head. I'm not one of
> those people, and I've tried mightily in many areas. However, the OP
> isn't talking about a meaningful career. He seems tempted by the siren
> call of high-end consumption (the lexus) and that is something that no
> $40K job is going to get him. You need serious bucks to be a high-end
> consumer, and of course, I don't think it's a worthy or satisfying
> goal, never mind that a regular job, high or low paid, is going to be
> in the lexus world.

Maybe the OP should see about getting into law or dentistry... not an easy
path, but a damn profitable one. Even a pharmacy degree makes running your
own very profitable business viable.

>
> Oh, and the cats- one poster said to get rid of them. No! Pets are a
> very satisfying part of life for many people.

So are nice clothes, living alone, cable TV, making charitable donations,
cigarettes, porn and a latte every morning from Starbucks... and when you
take a drop in pay in order to study, sometimes you have to cut back on
luxuries.


I trust the OP is taking
> good care of his cats. He has enough money to take care of basic
> business and pets. Pets are never a frugal choice, but they certainly
> can make daily living a lot more pleasant and satisfying.
>
> Ilene B

If the OP quits work to study, then money might get tight.... too tight to
afford a heap of pet expenses at once if his luck runs out. The cats make
things less flexible... make more savings necessary to cover a drop of
income during study. If the OP gets the opportunity to downsize the pet
commitment without causing emotional distress the OP probably should. Which
means no more cats, and if the OP gets the chance to offload a cat onto
someone he trusts who dearly wants a cat, then he probably should consider
doing so.

silvasurfa
July 22nd 03, 12:24 PM
"Chloe" > wrote in message
...

>
> Clue: Anectodal stories about a carnival fish that lived for 10 years in a
> tiny bowl in filthy water notwithstanding, they're a *lot* of work to care
> for properly and generally have a short life span because people allow
them
> to be poisoned in a toxic soup of their own waste. I spend a lot more time
> maintaining my three fancy goldfish than I do my cats.
>
> Of course, the point of your example is, I suppose, that if the goldfish
> gets sick you just flush it down the toilet and get another one, but then
> you obviously miss the point that there are a lot of people who feel that
> cats and dogs are equally disposable. Certainly they can all be acquired
for
> almost nothing and there's a big oversupply.
>
> C., who is happy to go to considerable trouble and/or expense keeping both
> the fish and the cats healthy
>
>

If you live in a part of the world with the right climate, you can put the
goldfish in a big enough outdoor pond, throw in a bit of food every so often
and the damn things grow too big to fit on a dinner plate. They are just
fancy carp after all, one of the cockroaches of the freshwater environment.
They've gone wild in one of the major rivers near me, and there is a
fertiliser manufacturer that makes thousands of tonnes of fertiliser a year
from grinding up the carcases of feral carp. I remember as a kid feeding
stale bread to carp the size of footballs at a lake in a local park... ugly
vicous little *******s they can be... then the park management poisoned out
the carp to restock the lake... bet it is less than 10 years before some
clueless fish abandoner releases more carp and it is back to the carp
monoculture in that lake.

silvasurfa
July 22nd 03, 12:31 PM
"Heather Jones" > wrote in message
rg...
> Dude! It wasn't me! It was lpogoda who wrote:
> : Nolan McKinney wrote in message ...
> :>People in India, China, and the Phillipines are getting it, probably
better
> :>than you.
> <snip>
> : As for my personal skill level, it's pretty good. But I'm well aware
that
> : there are a lot of people who are better at it than I am - I even know a
few
> : of them personally. I'm sure that some of those programmers in India,
> : China, and the Phillipines as well as other places fall into the "better
at
> : it than I am" category. I'm equally sure that some of them fall into
the
> : "not as good at it as I am" category.
>
> The only point that seems to matter to the ones sending them programming
> jobs from the states is that they'll work for less money, not that
> they're better or faster or whatever. Five programmers for the price of
> one is an offer they just don't seem to be able to pass up.
>
> --heather
>
> --
> Heather Jones heather_jones(at)pobox(dot)com
> http://www.haphazard.org http://www.savorysecrets.com

Which means that for the time being at least, you are better off as an
analyst then as a programmer.

July 22nd 03, 02:27 PM
>I was stuck in a low-paying, dead-end field for years, so I went back
>to college and finally completed my degree. I've found that much more
>rewarding (including in $$$) ever since.

What did you get a degree in Niel?

Dennis
July 22nd 03, 05:24 PM
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 03:05:55 GMT, Heather Jones
> wrote:

>Dude! It wasn't me! It was lpogoda who wrote:
>: Nolan McKinney wrote in message ...
>:>People in India, China, and the Phillipines are getting it, probably better
>:>than you.
><snip>
>: As for my personal skill level, it's pretty good. But I'm well aware that
>: there are a lot of people who are better at it than I am - I even know a few
>: of them personally. I'm sure that some of those programmers in India,
>: China, and the Phillipines as well as other places fall into the "better at
>: it than I am" category. I'm equally sure that some of them fall into the
>: "not as good at it as I am" category.
>
>The only point that seems to matter to the ones sending them programming
>jobs from the states is that they'll work for less money, not that
>they're better or faster or whatever. Five programmers for the price of
>one is an offer they just don't seem to be able to pass up.

That's largely because such decisions are often made by managers who
themselves don't "get it". I've known managers who planned software
projects with the assumption that all programmers were interchangable
"heads". Their projects were rarely successful.

the Dennis formerly known as (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

IleneB
July 22nd 03, 05:51 PM
In article >, Neil
> wrote:

> The OP already pasted his career interests.

Actually, he has only posted that he wants to make more money and "get
somewhere" beyond his three years post-high school life. He
specifically mentioned nursing and already knows he doesn't at all want
to do that but is considering it for the money.

Now, I do think that knowing what you want from a job/career is as
important as deciding what that job will be, and what preparation is
called for. But the OP doesn't seem to have much handle on much yet
except wanting a higher salary.

And I feared finishing a liberal arts degree and then ending up driving
a cab or waitressing, as you can witness in any university area. I know
the OP didn't mention these things. I mention them as places not to end
up with a degree and loans.

Living and working in a university city for some 30 years now
(Boston/Cambridge) I do see many many people with large loans for
liberal arts degrees and particular prospects for employment. If they
enjoyed the learning, that's fine, but they appear disappointed to be
waiting on tables or working under my RN license for peanuts as mental
health assistants.

And I still think one can get a pretty good self-education by reading
everything in the New York Times.

Ilene B

lpogoda
July 22nd 03, 07:57 PM
"Chloe" > wrote in message >...
> "lpogoda" > wrote in message
> ...
> ><snip>
> > I would also suggest that someone who doesn't have or can't afford medical
> > insurance for himself isn't in much of a financial position to take on the
> > costs of anything much more demanding than a goldfish or a house plant.
>
> You don't know much about goldfish, do you?

Can't say anything around here without someone taking you to task for
it. But for the record, I started out with a 5 gallon tank that I had
for a couple of years, moved up to a 20 gallon, and eventually ended
up with a 50 gallon. All together, I have about 20 years experience.
Whether that meets your definition of "much" or not, I couldn't say.

> Clue: Anectodal stories about a carnival fish that lived for 10 years in a
> tiny bowl in filthy water notwithstanding,

I knew one of those fish - some chums of mine had one in a little pint
bowl on the kitchen counter the first time I was in their house as a
pre-teen, and it was still there years later when I left the state in
my mid-twenties. Mom changed the water every other day.

> they're a *lot* of work to care
> for properly and generally have a short life span because people allow them
> to be poisoned in a toxic soup of their own waste. I spend a lot more time
> maintaining my three fancy goldfish than I do my cats.

I wasn't talking about time, I was talking about money. It's pretty
rare to see or hear of someone having their goldfish operated on for a
heart murmur, or spending the night at the vet's to get their teeth
cleaned. The effort in maintaining a fish in one's home is involved
with maintaining the fish's natural environment (wet) in your natural
environment (dry).

> Of course, the point of your example is, I suppose, that if the goldfish
> gets sick you just flush it down the toilet and get another one, but then
> you obviously miss the point that there are a lot of people who feel that
> cats and dogs are equally disposable.

YOU obviously miss the point that I don't miss that point, and further
that I think that someone living on a marginal income cannot help
becoming one of "those" people if the wrong circumstances arise,
purely out of economic necessity, and further yet that I think that's
not appropriate.

I suppose the next post will be from someone who's growing an
Armorphophallus titanum in his or her living room, telling me that it
takes more effort to get one of these to flower than it does to raise
a kid, and I obviously don't know much about houseplants.

lpogoda
July 22nd 03, 08:06 PM
wrote in message >...
> >Education in any field increases your financial worth.
>
> What abt the IT field?
>
> Does everyone agree its a BAD place to go..... i.e get
> training in?

Well, I don't agree.

July 22nd 03, 09:19 PM
>> Does everyone agree its a BAD place to go..... i.e get
>> training in?
>
>Well, I don't agree.

Can you explain your opinion please?

baron48
July 23rd 03, 02:19 AM
IleneB > wrote in message >...
>
> And I still think one can get a pretty good self-education by reading
> everything in the New York Times.

Maybe, if you're not concerned about things like accuracy or
details.

-Tom

Neil
July 23rd 03, 02:40 AM
wrote in message >...
> >I was stuck in a low-paying, dead-end field for years, so I went back
> >to college and finally completed my degree. I've found that much more
> >rewarding (including in $$$) ever since.
>
> What did you get a degree in Niel?

English, with a concentration in writing and editing. I now do both.

BTW, when I went back to school and needed a part-time income, I also
decided only to take jobs that involved writing and editing. This gave
me some more experience, a stronger resume, and lead me into other
writing work.

Like the OP, I was stuck in a dead-end job before I returned to
school. Getting my degree was part of what got me into a better
career. I feel I can identify pretty strongly with the OP's situation;
IOW, been there, done that.

Neil
July 23rd 03, 02:45 AM
IleneB > wrote in message >...
> Hi there, and some good questions you ask.
>
> First of all, a disclosure. I'm an RN, and didn't much want to be one
> (did it at age 28).

I'm middle-aged. At least three people in my age group that I've met
lately have quit or been laid off from very different jobs than
nursing, yet they've decided to go back to school and become nurses.
These people are tired of business and technical careers and want to
do something where they really feel they're helping people.

I know a lot people in medical jobs and really have huge respect for
nurses.

(snip)

> There are other areas in medicine that you can decide on, unless the
> whole idea of medicine/other people is really distasteful. Imaging
> tech, med tech, lab person. However, since you are already in the
> pharmacy arena, how about pharmacy school? A real good future there.

Although the OP hasn't expressed any interest in becoming a
pharmacist, that idea crossed my mind. It would be related to medicine
and his current work, yet he'd have regular hours and not have to work
the sort of hours others in medical jobs sometimes have to.

I'm even more intrigued by the possible combination of the OP's
interests in foreign language and business. I'd think there's a lot of
opportunity there, and some great chances to travel, meet people in
other cultures, etc.

(snip)

lpogoda
July 23rd 03, 02:53 AM
Neil wrote in message ...

>
>Anyway, the OP expressed interest in foreign languages and business,
>and a college would provide education in both. Say, for example, he
>wanted to combine his interests and get into a job in international
>trade. I doubt he could do that with anything less than a college
>degree.

Oh, I don't know. Offhand, the possibility of running drugs from Mexico
comes to mind. Of course, I'm talking about licit prescription drugs
available for less money over the border, not illegal stuff. Also of
course, I'm being completely facetious.

lpogoda
July 23rd 03, 03:24 AM
wrote in message
>...
>>> Does everyone agree its a BAD place to go..... i.e get
>>> training in?
>>
>>Well, I don't agree.
>
>Can you explain your opinion please?

Oops - I see I failed to copy the first sentence of the post I was
responding to. For the record, the post in it's entirety was:

>> What abt the IT field?
>>
>> Does everyone agree its a BAD place to go..... i.e get
>> training in?

And I don't agree.

Does that clear up the confusion?

On the chance that you're asking what my reasons for disagreeing are, it's
that I know several people (including myself) who have made computer work of
one kind or another their careers, who are good at it, who find it
satisfying and even fun, and who are well paid for it. Ages range from mid
twenties to retirement.

Strictly speaking, I don't work in "IT" which at least in an office
environment tends to denote the people who deal with hardware, operating
systems, and networking. I tend to call myself a programmer, a good deal of
my work is as an analyst, and these days I write specialized software to
accomplish specific tasks, stuff which is theoretically run only once
although in practice it may run a few dozen times. The distinction is often
unclear or unknown to most people.

Anyway, I don't think computer related fields are bad places to go - if you
have the knack and the interest. To paraphrase Garret Morris on Saturday
Night Live "Computers been berry berry good to me" and to many people I
know.

To be fair, I also know a like number of people who've tried to make a go of
it in computer related fields and failed. I'm also fully aware that, to
quote my broker, "past performance is no guarantee of future results".

Colt
July 23rd 03, 03:43 AM
Neil wrote:

>
> I'm middle-aged. At least three people in my age group that I've met
> lately have quit or been laid off from very different jobs than
> nursing, yet they've decided to go back to school and become nurses.
> These people are tired of business and technical careers and want to
> do something where they really feel they're helping people.

Corny, but true: every day I work, I go home knowing I make the world a
better place. Patients and families thank me all the time. If staffing
didn't suck (lately), and if <too many> CNAs and doctors weren't such
assholes, I'd love my job. I make $40,000 a year and I have every
other week off.

IleneB
July 23rd 03, 05:25 AM
In article >, Neil
> wrote:

> when I went back to school and needed a part-time income, I also
> decided only to take jobs that involved writing and editing.

Interesting. Writing and editing is one of the few places I've seen
where a degree means little (I worked in news editing for public TV in
the 1970s and do copy editing for a public TV web site from home now as
a side job). I was always impressed at how irrelevant degrees were in
journalism overall.

Ilene B

Neil
July 23rd 03, 04:37 PM
IleneB > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Neil
> > wrote:
>
> > when I went back to school and needed a part-time income, I also
> > decided only to take jobs that involved writing and editing.
>
> Interesting. Writing and editing is one of the few places I've seen
> where a degree means little

It worked for me, but of course I already enjoyed writing.

Going to school to study writing doesn't guarantee career success in
writing, but it sure doesn't hurt. My first job in writing came from a
notice on the English department's bulletin board. This was a
part-time job suited to a student like me, then after I graduated, I
had that job for awhile and it helped to build my resume. In the
business world, I think I always see a degree requirement for any
writing job.

I've known writers who had gotten into such jobs decades ago, but
lacking that degree doesn't mean the degree isn't worthwhile.

> (I worked in news editing for public TV in
> the 1970s and do copy editing for a public TV web site from home now as
> a side job). I was always impressed at how irrelevant degrees were in
> journalism overall.

From what I've seen, at least in the newspaper world, I think that's
changed a lot in the last few decades with the rise of journalism
schools.

Neil
July 23rd 03, 04:41 PM
Colt > wrote in message >...
> Neil wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm middle-aged. At least three people in my age group that I've met
> > lately have quit or been laid off from very different jobs than
> > nursing, yet they've decided to go back to school and become nurses.
> > These people are tired of business and technical careers and want to
> > do something where they really feel they're helping people.
>
> Corny, but true: every day I work, I go home knowing I make the world a
> better place. Patients and families thank me all the time. If staffing
> didn't suck (lately), and if <too many> CNAs and doctors weren't such
> assholes, I'd love my job. I make $40,000 a year and I have every
> other week off.

After the business and high-tech boom/bust of recent years, these
friends have decided they'd rather do something where they felt they
were making a difference and helping people, not just making and
selling widgets or whatever and trying to make money. It's been
interesting for me to see people who were so dedicated to their
careers, advancement, etc. decide to leave that all behind and get
into nursing, where they feel the pay is decent and they'll really be
directly helping people.

Neil
July 23rd 03, 11:03 PM
"lpogoda" > wrote in message >...
> Nolan McKinney wrote in message ...

(snip)

> You go to college to get an education, you go to a something like a trade
> school to learn a skill. There's a tendency to treat colleges like trade
> schools, but they're not. The non-nursing classes are part of your
> education.

Agree. I was required to take some science classes in college, so I
took a botany course, which had nothing to do with my major. In turned
out to be an excellent class, not so much for the practical knowledge,
but for the ways of thinking it gave me for thinking about many
things. I still use those ways of thinking.

>I suppose they're also used as a screening tool - if you can't
> pass an English or basic algebra class, no one thinks you'll do too well at
> anatomy.

Could be so. And a college is looking to turn out well-rounded
students too who won't be confined by merely what's in a student's
major.

(snip)

> >and they just want my
> >money.
>
> Not quite. If that were the case, you could attend as long as you were
> willing and able to pay. But you can't - they make you matriculate, and
> they will flunk you out if you don't meet a minimum level of performance.

When I went back to college as an adult, the health insurance
available to students was so cheap that I was tempted to try to stay
to college as long as possible! ;-)

> >The problem with that is, I'll run broke paying for it, and working
> >40+ hours might cause me to flunk a class and get kicked out of the
> >competitive program.
>
> Speaking as someone who worked his way through college and who has taught at
> the local college, it's not a job that will cause you to flunk a class, it's
> a lack of effort or a lack of aptitude. You have to decide which is more
> important, jam today or jam tomorrow, and arrange your affairs accordingly.

Agree. I went to college for many years parttime, while having a
fulltime job. My grades suffered because most of my time and energy
went to my fulltime job. It was only when I realized that I had to
make going to college my fulltime job that I started doing well in
college and finally graduated.

(I still worked, but only parttime in jobs that related to my
education and only when it didn't interfere with my studies.)

> Meaning if you can't study enough to stay in school and work 40+ hours a
> week and you want to stay in school, you have to cut down on the working
> hours.

Exactly.

>Which in turn means all of the usual things college students do to
> cut down expenses - living with parents, or roommates for instance.

My wife and I both decided to go back to school. She began first,
while I helped to support her, then as she got closer to finishing, I
started school parttime and made the transition to fulltime student as
she started to increase her work hours.

But we never exactly had a plan for this. We first decided that we
both needed/wanted to go back to school, then decided that if we put
our minds to it, attended an in-state public college to keep expenses
low, and lived as cheaply as possible, we could probably make it work
out. That plan worked.

>But if
> you don't have the aptitude for a particular field (I'm a programmer, there
> are loads of people out there who just don't seem to "get it" when it comes
> to programming no matter how much they study)

Hmmm...like me!

> it doesn't much matter.
>
> >I can't get financial aid until I'm 23, because of my
> >parents income and assets. And I don't wanna be a nurse, but it seems like
> 2
> >years at community college and a minimum $40k income is a bargain, and the
> >hospital will pay tuitition for just about any degree.
>
> If you don't want to be a nurse, then don't waste your time and money
> learning to become one.

Agree.

> >2. Number two I could keep living the leisure life and start school after
> >I'm 23, slowly earning a liberal arts degree, starting at community college
> >and then finishing at a local four year college (UNC-Asheville.) This is
> >where my heart seems to be. I could maintain my current budget and not
> >stress too much over classes.
>
> Nothing wrong with stressing over classes as long as it doesn't get
> pathological. After all, this is important stuff that can change the course
> of your entire life.

I'll add that as you get older, get married, have a family, etc.
(these may not be in your plans, but these things tend to happen to
adults) it may get harder to go back to school. So I suggest that if
at all possible, you quit working or cut back on your hours and put
the pedal to the metal and finish school ASAP. I wish I'd done that
myself and gotten college behind me sooner.

> >I'd really enjoy foreign languages and
> >business classes. The problem is, this akin to doing nothing to increase
> my
> >financal worth, it could take 8 years to get a four year degree which will
> >be no gaurantee of higher pay.
>
> There are no guarantees, other than something like it's guaranteed that
> nothing will change if you do nothing.

Agree.

> >I'm tired of my job, even though my manger
> >is wonderful and I can name my schedule. There's no way for me to be
> >promoted and we only get an annual cost of living raise.
> >
> >3. Move to a bigger city where I could make more than $20k by finding a
> >better job and/or working for a larger company that could promote me after
> >some time.
>
> In spite of the cynics (a few who even post here) and unlike publicly funded
> education, promotions in business tend to be linked to performance and
> results, but you also need certain qualifications to even be considered. If
> you're talking about office type jobs, a degree can make a huge difference.
> At your age, being in school and working towards a degree can make a huge
> difference.

Agree. And being in college will give you access to internships that
let you explore different career options.

> >Then I could go to school when I couldn't go any further without
> >a degree. I might even end up working for a company that will pay tuition.
> >This seems hopelessly idealistic
>
> Lots of companies pay tuition, up to a certain maximum per year and subject
> to maintaining a minimum grade in the class. What it boils down to is that
> going to school on the company's dime could take 8 years to do a couple
> years of full time shooling.

I'd go ahead, bite the bullet, and finish school ASAP. If you let it
drag on for many years, you may have trouble focussing on and getting
into your studies, because you'll have so many distractions over 8
years.

>If you wait until you can't go any further
> before you start, you could find youself working on an associates degree and
> pushing 40. Nother actually wrong with that, but most people with an
> associates get it far earlier in life than that.

I didn't finish my degree until I was in my 30's. I'm really glad I
did, and my only regret is that I didn't make more effort earlier and
finish 10 years earlier.

> >I'll end end singing along with Gladys
> >Knight "Midnight Train to Georgia" or Tracy Chapman "Fast Car." I think
> >stability is important while my cats are growing up.
>
> Get rid of the cats. You don't make enough money to properly care for one,
> let alone multiple, pets. And if you're on the brink of major changes in
> your life, stability isn't going to be in cards for possibly several years.

Agree, although I'll add that you should find good homes for the cats
and/or give them to a local shelter that won't kill the cats if they
can't find homes. There are private pet and cat groups that will find
homes for the cats; you can probably find one locally.

> >After typing all this I'm almost convinced number 2 is best. But, it just
> >seems like I should be farther along than this 3 years after graduation,
> and
> >I hate thinking nothing will be different in 3 more years.
>
> Things are the same as they were in high school because you haven't done
> anything different since high school. They will be the same in 3 more
> years, they will be the same for the rest of your life, unless you do
> something different, until you take on the responsibility for your life,
> just like any other adult.

Agree.

> >I'm also afraid
> >a hospitalization/illness could ruin me with such a small income.
>
> The average person can't pay for a major hospitalization/illness - you could
> start feeling poorly, go to the doctor, and discover you have something like
> leukemia. A few years and a million or two dollars (literally) later, you
> could be cured and live out a normal life. But pay for your treatment out
> of your own earnings? That's why there's medical insurance. If you don't
> have medical insurance, or belong to an HMO, get that taken care of.

As I've mentioned previously, one of the pleasant surprises I had was
discovering that my college offered very cheap health insurance to
students. The insurance was for young, healthy people, so naturally
that brought rates way, way down.

> ?Oh, and
> >the devil is sitting on my left shoulder telling me I need a pre-owned
> >lexus.
>
> You "need" an education, perhaps, or to acquire a marketable skill, or maybe
> just a different job. You don't "need" an expensive used car that you can't
> afford.

Agree. I've seen people in low-paying jobs who bought luxury cars and
other stuff that just drained their wallets and kept them enslaved to
the bad jobs.

> >So what do y'all think? I'll be grateful for any type of advice.
>
> I think you're 21 with no obligations (footloose and fancy free) and need to
> get on with your life whether you go to school or not. How about a summer
> as a deckhand on the Great Lakes? Or as a waiter at some resort. Or on a
> cruise ship. Or as a firefighter in a national forest. Join the military.

The military could be a way to get some education and school money, or
even a career, if the military suits you. It might also be a way to
get training in foreign languages.

> Be a lifeguard on a beach. Play piano in a bar. Be a janitor in a
> hospital. A short order cook. Play minor league ball. There are tens of
> thousands of job titles in this country, spread over millions of square
> miles. Look around a little, try a couple out.

You might also talk to a career counselor and look at books like "What
Color is Your Parachute?" that will help you take your interests and
guide you to job titles that fit your interests.

Julie
July 24th 03, 01:02 AM
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:56:39 -0400, IleneB > wrote:

>Personally, I'd look at community college certification programs, union
>apprenticeships, technical schools, some sort of skill, not study.

I would agree with this. I don't know the situation in the US, but
here in the UK there is a huge shortage of electricians, plumbers,
etc. A good plumber in the UK can, apparently, earn £70000 (approx
$100000) a year. These types of skills are something that appear to
be disappearing in the western world, and, because they are still
needed, people who have these skills will become more and more in
demand.

Julie S

lpogoda
July 24th 03, 03:17 AM
wrote in message ...
>> I tend to call myself a programmer, a good deal of
>>my work is as an analyst, and these days I write specialized software to
>>accomplish specific tasks, stuff which is theoretically run only once
>>although in practice it may run a few dozen times. The distinction is
often
>>unclear or unknown to most people.
>
>Wow. Interesting!
>
>care to share with me exactly what programs you write
>and what they do? And who for?
>
>Just curious....

Sure, I don't mind. I presently work for a small CRO (Contract Research
Organization). Companies like mine conduct clinical trials (meaning studies
in humans, not in test tubes or on animals) of drugs and medical devices,
and maintain long term registries of certain conditions (for instance, you
may have heard of the Framingham Study, which has followed cardiovascular
developments over a long period of time in a large group of participants -
my company has had nothing to do with that particular study but we do work
similar to that).

A study usually involves acquiring investigators, enrolling patients,
collecting data generated by the study, analyzing the data, and perhaps
putting together a submission to the FDA. Studies are usually, but not
always, double-blind, meaning no one knows which treatment a patient
received until the study is over. Often one group of patients receives the
treatment being investigated and the other group receives a placebo. In
cases where that wouldn't be ethical, one group will receive the standard
accepted treatment for the condition, while the other group will receive the
experimental treatment, either instead of or in addition to the standard
treatment. Patients (or their guardians if the subjects are too young to
understand or are mentally incapacitated) are fully informed up front of the
whole deal, must sign a consent form to participate, and may withdraw at any
time for any reason.

Our company will conduct phase 1 through phase 4 trials and handle
registries. Some CRO's do studies on an international basis, but except for
registries our activities are confined to the United States.

Anyway, to judge whether the treatment being investigated is safe and
efficacious (and to compare its effectiveness with other, existing
treatments) the collected data must be analyzed. Before undergoing
analysis, it must be checked for internal consistency (was a patient
reported as male on one visit and female on the next?) general
reasonableness (if the minimum weight collected in the vital statistics of
the study population is zero pounds, something is amiss) and clinical
reasonableness (are the results of blood tests, urine test, physical exams,
etc. constant with the condition under investigation). Data must be
"regularized" to make comparisons possible - that is, standard terms and
codes are applied to certain conditions (the investigator might write
"throwing up" or "regurgitating" and the standard term might be "vomiting")
or to medications (aspirin, Bayer aspirin, Excedrin, etc. all become
acetylsalicylic acid) or to events (believe it or not, there's a standard
code for things like "got hit in the face by a tree branch while
snowmobiling at night").

Once the treatment phase of the study is complete and all of the
standardizations done and inconsistencies corrected, the blind is "broken" -
that is, a computer disk or a paper file that was put under lock and key
before the study began is used to determine which patient received which
treatment. And then analysis can start. Some of the questions the analysis
attempts to answer are things like: What changes if any in the
physiological or psychological status of the patients occurred over the
course of the trial? Were these changes statistically significant? Were
they different at different investigational sites? Did they vary by age, or
race, or national origin? What was the makeup of the study population? How
many adverse events occurred, what were they, and were they attributable to
the treatment? How likely is it that any differences observed were simply
due to random chance?

The programs I write assist with or do all of the above. They assist in
computerizing the data, aid in checking for consistency and reasonableness,
help in translating to common terms, apply the blind, do the analysis and
present the results in usable form, and if needed reformat the data to be
compatible for inclusion in a sponsor's database. Plus incidental things
like paying the investigators for their work or the patient stipend for
their participation or making interim progress reports to the study sponsor.
If it were a perfect world (well nearly perfect, in a perfect world people
wouldn't get sick and none of this would be necessary) all the patients
would enroll on the same day, no one would deviate from the schedule, all
data would be perfectly legible and submitted promptly, no one (including
me) would make mistakes, all significant factors would be known up front,
and so on - in such a world, most of the programs I write to help the
process along would need to be run only once. It isn't such a world,
however, so in practice most of this stuff has to run multiple times.

Eventually it's over, and another study begins. But no two studies are
identical (even for the same drug by the same company conducted in the same
way), so the programs used for one study aren't usually usable for another
without at least some modification. A near total rewrite is more often the
case.

Some people I talk to seem to think I'm in a medical or medical-related
field. The company I work for is, but I personally am not. I have no
medical training whatsoever, and my medical experience is limited to being a
patient.

lpogoda
July 24th 03, 03:22 AM
silvasurfa wrote in message ...
>
>
>I sorta wouldn't mind being an analyst but they tend to burn out in a few
>years from the stresses of trying to turn client needs into ideas that can
>attract a budget line.
>
I guess I'd better start looking for another line of work, then, I've been
at this around twenty years. So far, I don't feel any signs of burning out.
But then, my approach tends to be a little different - I see a budget line
and tell 'em I can knock ten or twenty percent off that figure and a week or
a month off the time. And then deliver of course.

William R. Watt
July 24th 03, 02:29 PM
lorenzo ) writes:

> one caution though: if constant learning is a bitch
> to anyone, it is not the right field..

its also very cyclical. upgrading systems is a cpatial investment that's
put off during recessions. jobs come and go with the business cycle. at
the moment few organizatiosn are buying computers. the best place to be is
working for some level of government as a member of a public sector union.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

July 24th 03, 04:09 PM
>Agree. I went to college for many years parttime, while having a
>fulltime job. My grades suffered because most of my time and energy
>went to my fulltime job. It was only when I realized that I had to
>make going to college my fulltime job that I started doing well in
>college and finally graduated.

Neil.....

Im 45...... single... no kids... and no college degree.

I regret NOT getting a degree in "something".

Is it too late .... or unwise for me to even think abt
going back full time??

Advice?

lorenzo
July 24th 03, 04:13 PM
wrote:

> Is it too late .... or unwise for me to even think abt
> going back full time??

i'm not Neil, but i've a friend who quit his law practice
and doing mba at the age of 48. its never too late if
you know what you want. don;t expect the degree to
make miracles tho. its you who does it.

good luck !
*lorenzo*

leslie
July 24th 03, 04:20 PM
William R. Watt ) wrote:
:
: lorenzo ) writes:
:
: > one caution though: if constant learning is a bitch
: > to anyone, it is not the right field..
:
: its also very cyclical. upgrading systems is a cpatial investment that's
: put off during recessions. jobs come and go with the business cycle. at
: the moment few organizatiosn are buying computers. the best place to be
: is working for some level of government as a member of a public sector
: union.
:

Unlike previous recessions, blue collar and white collar jobs are being
exported, from telemarketing to radiologist; e.g.:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_05/b3818001.htm
BW Online | February 3, 2003 | The New Global Job Shift

Just make the following the home page of your browser, to see
the articles added daily on offshore job relocations:

http://h1b.info/outsourcing/
Outsourcing News -
Collection of news articles about American jobs going overseas.

Government jobs are also vulnerable to offshore job relocations and
non-immigrant visas.

http://www.usadaily.com/Commentary/Choate/030307_outsourcing_your_job.htm
Outsourcing Your Job

"...Taking outsourcing to the next level, the American Chamber of Commerce
of the Philippines is now demanding that the United States outsource
much of its existing federal and state government work. After all,
most work of the federal and state governments is really little
different than most corporate back office operations. It can be done
as effectively by Filipinos in Manila as Americans in Wichita,
Washington, or Atlanta, and at a substantial savings in labor cost..."

http://www.manews.org/0403lutton.htm
States, Federal Government Hire Foreign Workers

"State and federal government agencies from coast to coast
are hiring foreign workers for good-paying jobs at the expense of
American citizens. Despite the availability of tens of thousands of
highly-trained recent college graduates and high national unemployment
rate pegged by the Labor Department at 8.9 percent for white-collar
workers, American governments are using the federal H-1B
foreigner-employment program to import foreign workers, shutting out
unemployed Americans..."




--Jerry Leslie (my opinions are strictly my own)
Note: is invalid for email

lorenzo
July 24th 03, 04:32 PM
Pat Meadows wrote:

> Do you think you might be a little out of touch with recent
> developments?

no. depends on your skill level. majority of the startups have
a architecture/design front end in the US. if you are that
skilled you're hard to replace.(unless your salary is not a
ripoff again). if you are just another c/perl/unix/windows developer
dude or a dead end tech support guy, there are thousands of
replacements offshore for 1/10th of the price.

unfortunaltely most people donot want to take onus on themselves.
its so easy to complain on usenet with all references to latest
news reports about how one is getting screwed.

sorry...
*lorenzo*

zulubaby
July 25th 03, 12:30 AM
In article >,
says...
>
>>Agree. I went to college for many years parttime, while having a
>>fulltime job. My grades suffered because most of my time and energy
>>went to my fulltime job. It was only when I realized that I had to
>>make going to college my fulltime job that I started doing well in
>>college and finally graduated.
>
>Neil.....
>
>Im 45...... single... no kids... and no college degree.
>
>I regret NOT getting a degree in "something".
>
>Is it too late .... or unwise for me to even think abt
>going back full time??
>
>Advice?

I'm not Neil, but...

....when you go to apply for a job in your degreed field, you will be handicapped
because of your age and lack of experience. And you will hate being interviewed
by people in their early twenties who are fresh out of college. But there is
always a chance earning your degree will be the best thing for you. If you
aren't responsible for anyone else, the consequences (or rewards) only effect
you, so why not? Just pick a field that can't be farmed out overseas.

Colt
July 25th 03, 04:04 AM
Mogie wrote:
>
> Hubby regrets getting a degree. After graduating from college less then 2
> years ago it took him nearly 5 months to find a job. He went back to college
> after the sawmill he was working in shut down.
>
> No business wanted him. They looked at his resume and said 20 years sawmill
> experience. Go get a job at a mill.
>
> The sawmills looked at his resume and saw the degree and said he was over
> qualified. Took 5 months but he is back at the sawmill again. Oh he did have
> a job in between working at Ingram's pulling books for orders (minimum
> wage).
>
> He got a AA in desktop publishing. The degree isn't worth the paper it's
> printed on. Also on the dean's list so it's not like he's a dummy.
>
> But he has a job and that is what counts. A college degree doesn't mean that
> much, at least not where we live.
>
> Just happy to be getting a steady paycheck and have benefits too!


My husband and I went back to school and earned new degrees in our 40s.
We both worked in our new professions for 2 years, then we were both
laid off 5 months apart. We will be paying back our student loans
until we retire (really!). It was definitely not worth it. 20/20
hindsight, we wouldn't have done it if we knew then what we know now.

Neil
July 25th 03, 04:29 PM
lorenzo > wrote in message >...
> wrote:
>
> > Is it too late .... or unwise for me to even think abt
> > going back full time??
>
> i'm not Neil, but i've a friend who quit his law practice
> and doing mba at the age of 48. its never too late if
> you know what you want. don;t expect the degree to
> make miracles tho. its you who does it.
>
> good luck !
> *lorenzo*

Agree. Actually, at least in my part of the US and at least in the
state universities and colleges, these schools started opening up more
and more possibilities for older and part-time students. The same may
be true in your region, John. Call the counseling centers and
admissions offices at local colleges and universities, set up
appointments, and meet with the folks and get some ideas about the
possibilities. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

When I went back to school as an older student, it was easier for me
than when I was younger because I was more mature and focussed. Due to
being an adult, I was more of a peer with the teachers, and I had
social skills and work experience that helped me when I had to deal
with, meet with, etc. my teachers. For me, going to school when I was
older was much easier and more interesting than when I was younger.
Most of the other students were college age, but there were some older
students like me also.

As I think I mentioned in other posts, I know four middle-aged people
who are roughly your age who have gone back to school in the last
year. Three are going into nursing and one is getting a master's
degree.

Go for it! I think you'll be very glad you did. I'd gone to college
part-time when I was younger, but it always bothered me that I didn't
finish and have a degree. I got a lot out of finally graduating and
the additional education has been very useful in all aspects of my
life. I can honestly say that as a result of the education and degree,
I do feel smarter than before.

Neil
July 25th 03, 04:38 PM
zulubaby > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> >>Agree. I went to college for many years parttime, while having a
> >>fulltime job. My grades suffered because most of my time and energy
> >>went to my fulltime job. It was only when I realized that I had to
> >>make going to college my fulltime job that I started doing well in
> >>college and finally graduated.
> >
> >Neil.....
> >
> >Im 45...... single... no kids... and no college degree.
> >
> >I regret NOT getting a degree in "something".
> >
> >Is it too late .... or unwise for me to even think abt
> >going back full time??
> >
> >Advice?
>
> I'm not Neil, but...
>
> ...when you go to apply for a job in your degreed field, you will be handicapped
> because of your age and lack of experience.

Maybe, maybe not. He'll have maturity and life experience a younger
student can't have.

> And you will hate being interviewed
> by people in their early twenties who are fresh out of college.

I think that's annoying for anybody over that age. Not a big deal to
me. Besides, older people are the ones really in charge in almost any
organization, not some recent grad in HR.

>But there is
> always a chance earning your degree will be the best thing for you.

It was for me.

> If you
> aren't responsible for anyone else, the consequences (or rewards) only effect
> you, so why not? Just pick a field that can't be farmed out overseas.

I wasn't so picky and didn't try to read the future. I'd just get the
education, if necessary start looking for a new job, and see what
happens next.

Back in the 1980's, Forbes magazine once had a graph on their cover.
The graph was part of a story showing that the more education a person
has, the more money they'll tend to make. The story also pointed out
that it would easy to think the graph was skewed by certain
high-paying jobs that require a lot of education, but that wasn't the
case; greater education in any area increased the likelihood of making
more money.

Of course, there are exceptions to that, but I think the more
education you have, the more you're able to see and exploit
opportunities to earn. And I think education brings more respect from
other educated folks who are better able to pay well. YMMV, but IMHO,
and in my case, education has paid off in many ways, including in $$$.

Colt
July 25th 03, 10:54 PM
Pat Meadows wrote:
>
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:04:06 -0400, Colt
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >My husband and I went back to school and earned new degrees in our 40s.
> >We both worked in our new professions for 2 years, then we were both
> >laid off 5 months apart. We will be paying back our student loans
> >until we retire (really!). It was definitely not worth it. 20/20
> >hindsight, we wouldn't have done it if we knew then what we know now.
>
> There's a chance I *could* have done it when I was 44. But
> I would have gone deeply into debt, and I would have been
> starting from scratch: only a high-school education to
> build on. It would no doubt have taken me at least 7 or 8
> years for a bachelor's degree as I would have had to work a
> lot of part-time jobs to support myself throughout.
>
> I decided it probably wasn't worth it, as I was then able to
> support myself and live simply but adequately. I was
> content with the income I could earn as a secretary, and I
> mostly enjoyed my job.
>
> Thank you for posting this.
>
> Pat


You're welcome. I get nervous when I hear people exhort others to "go
back to school," no matter what the cost. A degree doesn't
automatically earn you a better-paying job. Although my DH and I *did*
have better paying jobs for 2 years, the layoffs (and nationwide decline
in the demand for our professions, which had been HOT)put an end to
that.

Also, my DH discovered he didn't really like the profession he had
chosen (physical therapist)--despite evaluating the field and doing
volunteer wrok in a PT facility, he didn't realize he wouldn't like it
until after he was actually working in the field. For him, the layoff
was, in a way, a blessing in disguise, because he ended up leaving a
profession he didn't like.

One other "also," and that is that age discrimination is real. People
shouldn't assume it doesn't exist just because it's against the law
:-).

IleneB
July 25th 03, 11:16 PM
In article >, Colt
> wrote:

> People
> shouldn't assume it doesn't exist just because it's against the law


Ha. I went at age 43 for a job in the same department I'd worked in
(public TV news captioning) some18 years before. The job had changed
dramatically, and involved a lot more technology and a lot less
wordsmithing. However, I had to be the only person who walked in the
door who had captioning experience, as it's quite rare. Most people in
that job are under 30. The handsome young man (*YOUNG*) who interviewed
me asked, "How do you feel about working with people so much younger
than you are?" I gently suggested that he shouldn't ask me that. I got
hired, the job sucked, and it didn't work out at all. I did wonder if
the age thing was an issue.

Ilene B

Sewmaster
July 26th 03, 12:59 AM
Colt wrote:
>
> One other "also," and that is that age discrimination is real. People
> shouldn't assume it doesn't exist just because it's against the law
> :-).

That's for sure! We've experienced this first-hand, as have
some of our friends. We're 49 & 50. "They" don't want us anymore.
We're very skilled at what we do, & fairly flexible.
Employers in general want younger people. We've volunteered to
work for less, a lot of them still want younger people.

Don't bother telling us to sue on age discrimination.
Our pockets aren't deep enough.

Sewmaster

Mogie
July 26th 03, 01:47 AM
Hubby regrets getting a degree. After graduating from college less then 2
years ago it took him nearly 5 months to find a job. He went back to college
after the sawmill he was working in shut down.

No business wanted him. They looked at his resume and said 20 years sawmill
experience. Go get a job at a mill.

The sawmills looked at his resume and saw the degree and said he was over
qualified. Took 5 months but he is back at the sawmill again. Oh he did have
a job in between working at Ingram's pulling books for orders (minimum
wage).

He got a AA in desktop publishing. The degree isn't worth the paper it's
printed on. Also on the dean's list so it's not like he's a dummy.

But he has a job and that is what counts. A college degree doesn't mean that
much, at least not where we live.

Just happy to be getting a steady paycheck and have benefits too!




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Chloe
July 26th 03, 03:02 AM
"Sewmaster" > wrote in message
...
> Colt wrote:
> >
> > One other "also," and that is that age discrimination is real. People
> > shouldn't assume it doesn't exist just because it's against the law
> > :-).
>
> That's for sure! We've experienced this first-hand, as have
> some of our friends. We're 49 & 50. "They" don't want us anymore.
> We're very skilled at what we do, & fairly flexible.
> Employers in general want younger people. We've volunteered to
> work for less, a lot of them still want younger people.
>
> Don't bother telling us to sue on age discrimination.
> Our pockets aren't deep enough.
>
> Sewmaster

I was worried about this when I went looking for work at age 52 and after
being out of the workplace for more than 8 years. I have a feeling age was a
factor in not getting called back after a couple of interviews. The guys who
eventually hired me were more interested in some of the positives that went
along with my being older than they were in the negatives. I made a point of
telling them that both my husband and I were in good health and that I had
no family responsibilities other than my husband, i.e., there would be no
issues like emergency babysitting of grandchildren, illness of aged parents,
etc. IOW, I voluntarily gave them a lot of information they're probably
prohibited by law from asking about and tried to use my personal
situation--including my age, varied work experience and my understanding of
the old-fashioned style of office etiquette it was obvious they wanted--to
my advantage.

It being a small company where only the two owners had to agree on my hiring
probably helped, and I'm sure it also helped that their eye was on the
economic bottom line rather than on the relative perkiness of my personal
bottom <g>. But there's only so much you can do until you happen on a place
where the age thing is not an issue.

zulubaby
July 26th 03, 07:00 AM
In article >,
says...
>
>zulubaby > wrote in message
>...
>> In article >,
>> says...
>> >
>> >>Agree. I went to college for many years parttime, while having a
>> >>fulltime job. My grades suffered because most of my time and energy
>> >>went to my fulltime job. It was only when I realized that I had to
>> >>make going to college my fulltime job that I started doing well in
>> >>college and finally graduated.
>> >
>> >Neil.....
>> >
>> >Im 45...... single... no kids... and no college degree.
>> >
>> >I regret NOT getting a degree in "something".
>> >
>> >Is it too late .... or unwise for me to even think abt
>> >going back full time??
>> >
>> >Advice?
>>
>> I'm not Neil, but...
>>
>>...when you go to apply for a job in your degreed field, you will be handicapped
>> because of your age and lack of experience.
>
>Maybe, maybe not. He'll have maturity and life experience a younger
>student can't have.

That counts for jack**** for some companies. The president of the company I
worked for kept telling how my maturity was such a plus over the younger ones.
Paid me $6k less starting pay than the 22-yr-old boy who came in a year later at
the exact same job. Of course, there was sex discrimination involved here also.

>
>> And you will hate being interviewed
>> by people in their early twenties who are fresh out of college.
>
>I think that's annoying for anybody over that age. Not a big deal to
>me. Besides, older people are the ones really in charge in almost any
>organization, not some recent grad in HR.

I interviewed at the *largest* frozen food factory in US after I was laid-off.
I interviewed with 6 people - 5 of them under 40. The head of the microbiology
dept. was 22! Only the lady in HR was in my age group and she told me that it
was "so nice to see someone her age around here". This place had just been
bought out the year before and must have retired a lot of the old-timers. The
place I was laid-off from has been bought out twice. Only two people are left
there that are older than I am. That's a lot of older workers forced to retire
or look elsewhere.

>>But there is
>> always a chance earning your degree will be the best thing for you.
>
>It was for me.

But it may not be for him. It certainly wasn't for me or a lot of other people.
I wish I had earned a degree in my 20's for *anything*, and then in my 30's
earned a degree for something I really wanted to do. Actually, I wish I had
gone into real estate. :)

IleneB
July 26th 03, 05:44 PM
In article >, Colt
> wrote:

> Corny, but true: every day I work, I go home knowing I make the world a
> better place.

One reason I became an RN at age 28 (besides being practical and
knowing I could work anywhere and thought "if there's another Great
Depression, I can work nights in a nursing home. There are always some
jobs that no one wants.") I did feel that, no matter what else is wrong
with my job or healthcare, I might have cheered someone up for a minute
or eased some pain or fear. Despite my overall cynicism (and the fact
that I work nights in psychiatric, where people's needs are often
unreasonable or part of their illness) I still do have that sense on
occasion.

And yes, staffing is a bitch. Apparently there isn't enough
unemployment to send too many people in hospital work or to have
laid-off engineers coming in to be mental health assistants, like in
the last recession.

I make substantially over $40K (20 years experience and Boston
salaries), I have good benefits and an old-fashioned company pension in
addition to the 403b. My hours suck and staffing is a constant problem.
If someone considers being an RN, I ask what they expect to get from it
and what their viable options are. A large number of the mental health
assistants become RNs after working for a while and saying, "Hey, I can
do that," especially the men. I think there are more male RNs in psych
than most anywhere else.

Ilene B

Neil
July 27th 03, 04:58 PM
zulubaby > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> >zulubaby > wrote in message
> >...
> >> In article >,

(snip)

> >He'll have maturity and life experience a younger
> >student can't have.
>
> That counts for jack**** for some companies.

I'm talking about school, where he'd be a student. But maturity and
experience can definitely be a plus at work also.

(snip)

> >>there is
> >> always a chance earning your degree will be the best thing for you.
> >
> >It was for me.
>
> But it may not be for him. It certainly wasn't for me or a lot of other people.
> I wish I had earned a degree in my 20's for *anything*, and then in my 30's
> earned a degree for something I really wanted to do.

I agreee that a college degree will benefit him.

> Actually, I wish I had
> gone into real estate. :)

Then do so. If you're talking about commissioned sales, the first year
or two of living off commissions could be tough, but from there you
could build your business.

Colt
July 29th 03, 12:34 AM
wrote:
>
> >My husband and I went back to school and earned new degrees in our 40s.
> >We both worked in our new professions for 2 years, then we were both
> >laid off 5 months apart. We will be paying back our student loans
> >until we retire (really!). It was definitely not worth it. 20/20
> >hindsight, we wouldn't have done it if we knew then what we know now.
>
> So what would you have done then?
>
> Im curious...


If we knew then what we know now, I would have stayed in my old
profession and not bothered to get a degree in a different profession
(since the layoff, I'm back in my old profession anyway). My DH would
have taken a few computer classes and started his own computer
repair/upgrade/networking business (which is what we he did after he was
laid off. We would have saved $40,000 in student loans (not to mention
opportunity costs of lost salaries for the years we were in school).

Of course, we couldn't have known then what we know now, so my regrets
are not that serious or compelling :-).

July 29th 03, 02:57 PM
>If we knew then what we know now, I would have stayed in my old
>profession and not bothered to get a degree in a different profession
>(since the layoff, I'm back in my old profession anyway). My DH would
>have taken a few computer classes and started his own computer
>repair/upgrade/networking business (which is what we he did after he was
>laid off. We would have saved $40,000 in student loans (not to mention
>opportunity costs of lost salaries for the years we were in school).

OK..... point taken.

So.... you basically had to pay for the college out of
your own pockets then, huh??

If you would have worked for a company that would have
helped pay for some of the education would you feel
differently abt the whole thing?

Carambola
July 31st 03, 02:05 AM
Mogie wrote:
>
> Carambola > wrote in message
> ...
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >If we knew then what we know now, I would have stayed in my old
> > > >profession and not bothered to get a degree in a different profession
> > > >(since the layoff, I'm back in my old profession anyway). My DH would
> > > >have taken a few computer classes and started his own computer
> > > >repair/upgrade/networking business (which is what we he did after he
> was
> > > >laid off. We would have saved $40,000 in student loans (not to mention
> > > >opportunity costs of lost salaries for the years we were in school).
> > >
> > > OK..... point taken.
> > >
> > > So.... you basically had to pay for the college out of
> > > your own pockets then, huh??
> > >
> > > If you would have worked for a company that would have
> > > helped pay for some of the education would you feel
> > > differently abt the whole thing?
> >
> >
> > Not really--because most of the cost of going to school is in living
> > expenses, not in tuition. We had a mortgage to pay, etc. So tuition
> > reimbursement wouldn't be that much of a big help. Also, I tried to
> > work while I went to school for that last degree, and found it
> > impossible to work even part time while I was in school full time. I
> > was in a tough program and it was very stressful. I did work my way
> > through school for my first degree, but I was young then :-).
> >
> Well my thinking is way off base. I thought that most of the cost of going
> to school was tuition.
>
> Your mortage, utility bills, etc. are part of everyday living. There are
> creative ways to lower those bills too. Refinance, take in a boarder, sell
> the place and buy cheaper, etc.


Er, yes, they are a part of everyday living. If one is not working (but
going to school instead), one still has to pay those bills. Tuition and
books were only $3000 a year--that's nothing compared to living
expenses.

lpogoda
July 31st 03, 04:46 AM
Carambola wrote in message >...
wrote:
>>
>> >If we knew then what we know now, I would have stayed in my old
>> >profession and not bothered to get a degree in a different profession
>> >(since the layoff, I'm back in my old profession anyway). My DH would
>> >have taken a few computer classes and started his own computer
>> >repair/upgrade/networking business (which is what we he did after he was
>> >laid off. We would have saved $40,000 in student loans (not to mention
>> >opportunity costs of lost salaries for the years we were in school).
>>
>> OK..... point taken.
>>
>> So.... you basically had to pay for the college out of
>> your own pockets then, huh??
>>
>> If you would have worked for a company that would have
>> helped pay for some of the education would you feel
>> differently abt the whole thing?
>
>
>Not really--because most of the cost of going to school is in living
>expenses, not in tuition. We had a mortgage to pay, etc.

And to be fair, if you have to pay certain bills whether or not you go to
school, then those bills aren't part of the cost of school, are they?

Carambola
July 31st 03, 03:07 PM
lpogoda wrote:

>
> And to be fair, if you have to pay certain bills whether or not you go to
> school, then those bills aren't part of the cost of school, are they?


The poster asked if I would feel differently if I had an employer who
would pay for tuition. I said no, because it was too hard for me to
work and go to school at the same time for my second degree, and most of
the cost of going to school is in the living expenses anyway. If you go
to a state or public college, the vast majority of your expenses are
going to be living expenses, not tuition. OF COURSE these are part of
the cost of school. Would you advise a student to disregard living costs
when they were calculating how much money they would need to attend
college? Of course not.

Another consideration related to school is opportunity cost. In
addition to the cost of tuition, books, living expenses, internships
(which were unpaid in my program and out-of-state in many cases) etc.,
one needs to recognize opportunity costs. At my salary of $40,000 per
year, my opportunity cost was $100,000 of income that I didn't earn
during the 2 1/2 years I was in school. All older students should take
these costs into consideration.

And what does "To be fair" mean in your post? What was "unfair" about
my post regarding college costs? Do you just enjoy arguing with people
on the internet? I didn't realize this was supposed to be an argument.

Mogie
August 1st 03, 01:20 AM
Carambola > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> >
> > >If we knew then what we know now, I would have stayed in my old
> > >profession and not bothered to get a degree in a different profession
> > >(since the layoff, I'm back in my old profession anyway). My DH would
> > >have taken a few computer classes and started his own computer
> > >repair/upgrade/networking business (which is what we he did after he
was
> > >laid off. We would have saved $40,000 in student loans (not to mention
> > >opportunity costs of lost salaries for the years we were in school).
> >
> > OK..... point taken.
> >
> > So.... you basically had to pay for the college out of
> > your own pockets then, huh??
> >
> > If you would have worked for a company that would have
> > helped pay for some of the education would you feel
> > differently abt the whole thing?
>
>
> Not really--because most of the cost of going to school is in living
> expenses, not in tuition. We had a mortgage to pay, etc. So tuition
> reimbursement wouldn't be that much of a big help. Also, I tried to
> work while I went to school for that last degree, and found it
> impossible to work even part time while I was in school full time. I
> was in a tough program and it was very stressful. I did work my way
> through school for my first degree, but I was young then :-).
>
Well my thinking is way off base. I thought that most of the cost of going
to school was tuition.

Your mortage, utility bills, etc. are part of everyday living. There are
creative ways to lower those bills too. Refinance, take in a boarder, sell
the place and buy cheaper, etc.






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Carambola
August 1st 03, 03:22 PM
lpogoda wrote:
>
> Carambola wrote in message >...
> >lpogoda wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> And to be fair, if you have to pay certain bills whether or not you go to
> >> school, then those bills aren't part of the cost of school, are they?
> >
> >
> > The poster asked if I would feel differently if I had an employer who
> >would pay for tuition. I said no, because it was too hard for me to
> >work and go to school at the same time for my second degree, and most of
> >the cost of going to school is in the living expenses anyway. If you go
> >to a state or public college, the vast majority of your expenses are
> >going to be living expenses, not tuition. OF COURSE these are part of
> >the cost of school. Would you advise a student to disregard living costs
> >when they were calculating how much money they would need to attend
> >college? Of course not.
>
> Well now, let's see. I'd advise anyone who intended to spend an extended
> period of time without an income to consider living costs when calculating
> how much money they'd need to see them through that period.
>
> A few years ago I worked with a young man who was fresh out of school and on
> his first job. He had a pile of college loans to pay off, so though he
> wasn't doing too bad, salary-wise, he didn't have a lot of discretionary
> money to toss around. Occasionally we'd talk about school, what we did
> there, how we paid for it (when I finished my degree I still had $1,000 in
> the bank and no loans owed to anybody. On the other hand, my weight was
> down to 135 pounds.). He had shared an apartment with a couple of other
> guys (standard student strategy for reducing expenses). But none of these
> guys wanted to clean the bathroom or do the dishes or sweep the floor or do
> any of the other stuff household stuff. Their solution? They hired a
> maid - someone who came in for a few hours every day and did the housework.
> He paid for his share of her services out of his student loans.
>
> He considered the maid part of the "cost" of his education. It was a
> creative solution and kept three guys from living in absolute squalor, but I
> think he was a few dust bunnies short.
>
> If you had bought a house a decade before and made mortgage payments for ten
> years, then went back to school and the mortgage payments continued, there's
> no way I'd consider those payments part of the cost of school. They weren't
> incurred _because_ you went to school. If you had sold the house and moved
> into a somewhat shabby apartment in a cheap section of town, maybe shared
> the apartment with another couple of people but went to the same school,
> would the cost of your education have ended up being less? If you'd bought
> a million dollar house the year before and then quit your jobs to go to
> school, would the cost of your education have been that much higher?
>
> You took out the loans (was it $40,000 you said?) to maintain a lifestyle
> for a period of time without working at a paying job. You would have needed
> (most of) those loans to maintain that lifestyle without working whether or
> not you went to school during those years.
>
> > Another consideration related to school is opportunity cost. In
> >addition to the cost of tuition, books, living expenses, internships
> >(which were unpaid in my program and out-of-state in many cases) etc.,
> >one needs to recognize opportunity costs. At my salary of $40,000 per
> >year, my opportunity cost was $100,000 of income that I didn't earn
> >during the 2 1/2 years I was in school. All older students should take
> >these costs into consideration.
>
> Any person who delays working to attend school incurs opportunity costs by
> foregoing the income s/he could've earned during that time. I'd hesitate to
> call that part of the cost of an education, though, partly because they can
> vary widely from individual to individual and the amount isn't directly tied
> to going to school. And every action can be viewed as having an opportunity
> cost - the time you or I spend reading and writing here could, for instance,
> be spent instead writing a novel, which might be picked up for a movie,
> which might mean millions in income if it turns out to be the next Harry
> Potter. Does that mean typing this little missive had an opportunity cost
> of $10,000 or more? More probable (for me anyway), I could be spending the
> time writing a computer program, an activity I could make a few hundred
> dollars at. But I don't personally consider that an evening spent on usenet
> "costs" me several hundred dollars.
>
> >And what does "To be fair" mean in your post? What was "unfair" about
> >my post regarding college costs?
>
> I think it's unfair to count expenses you had before you started school and
> continued to have after you finished school as part of the cost of school.
>
> >Do you just enjoy arguing with people
> >on the internet?
>
> I enjoy exhanging ideas with people, on and off the internet. Implicit in
> the idea of "exchange" is that the things exchanged will not be identical -
> when that happens and the "things" are ideas, most people tend to call that
> something like "agreement". If you want to characterize such an exchange as
> an argument, I have no objection, though I don't agree with the perjorative
> connotation.
>
> > I didn't realize this was supposed to be an argument.
>
> I didn't realize that my function, as someone who read your post, was to be
> restricted to either silence or agreement.


My point is simply that you are splitting hairs and that your "to be
fair" statement was just plain silly. But considering your other posts,
that should not come as a surprise.

GIJane
August 5th 03, 12:32 PM
From the get-go, forgive me since I didn't see the original post. However,
I just wanted to say that you had choices and made choices. You could have
left school after one semester or one year or not gone at all. There are no
guarantees that once safe industries will not have layoffs. There are no
guarantees that a chosen field of study will ever be worked in. I strongly
suggest you stop letting what you did, get in the way of what you do now.
Do try to learn whatever lessons available from the experience, but also
understand what forces you have absolutely no control.

"Carambola" > wrote in message
...
> lpogoda wrote:
>
> >
> > And to be fair, if you have to pay certain bills whether or not you go
to
> > school, then those bills aren't part of the cost of school, are they?
>
>
> The poster asked if I would feel differently if I had an employer who
> would pay for tuition. I said no, because it was too hard for me to
> work and go to school at the same time for my second degree, and most of
> the cost of going to school is in the living expenses anyway. If you go
> to a state or public college, the vast majority of your expenses are
> going to be living expenses, not tuition. OF COURSE these are part of
> the cost of school. Would you advise a student to disregard living costs
> when they were calculating how much money they would need to attend
> college? Of course not.
>
> Another consideration related to school is opportunity cost. In
> addition to the cost of tuition, books, living expenses, internships
> (which were unpaid in my program and out-of-state in many cases) etc.,
> one needs to recognize opportunity costs. At my salary of $40,000 per
> year, my opportunity cost was $100,000 of income that I didn't earn
> during the 2 1/2 years I was in school. All older students should take
> these costs into consideration.
>
> And what does "To be fair" mean in your post? What was "unfair" about
> my post regarding college costs? Do you just enjoy arguing with people
> on the internet? I didn't realize this was supposed to be an argument.
>

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