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View Full Version : More & more places won't take $50 bills


OhioGuy
August 29th 09, 08:13 PM
I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
$20".

As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
spending, this is making life difficult.

I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it costs
about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.

50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
much money to buy the same things.

I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.

Any thoughts?

Rod Speed[_1_]
August 29th 09, 08:29 PM
OhioGuy wrote:

> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more places are putting up signs saying "we do not
> accept any bills larger than $20".

> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control spending, this is making life difficult.

Hardly, just get only $20 notes when getting the cash.

> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally - now $20 is the largest bill they accept.
> With current gas prices, it costs about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.

> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation.

In practice bugger all of those were actually used in cheap retail transactions.

> With inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50 bought in 1969. In other words, you
> already have to carry around 6 times as much money to buy the same things.

Thats what you get when you insist on doing it the dinosaur way.

> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing to accept legal tender dollars.

Because it makes no sense to require them to accept say $1K bills.

> It says right on the bills that they are to be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.

And the legal reality is quite different.

> Any thoughts?

Use a debit card instead.

larry/dallas
August 29th 09, 09:36 PM
OhioGuy wrote:
> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> $20".
>
> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it costs
> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> much money to buy the same things.
>
> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>

Depends on who printed "legal tender" on it ;-)

Easy, carry $20 bills.

I had a bank give me a 1953 $50 bill that tested "counterfeit" with all
the new tests, pen turned black, no "thread", no red/blue fibers. Took
it back to the bank and they exchanged it. They got packs of them from
an estate deposit and everyone that received them had trouble with them.
They were the old "silver certificates". (don't bother, you can't get
silver for them anymore)

Also learned the bank does no tests, it could have been counterfeit, and
I would have been stuck with it! I now take nothing larger than $20's,
and check for the thread and few fibers before I leave the teller.

Clincher
August 29th 09, 09:54 PM
"OhioGuy" > wrote in message
...
> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> $20".
>
> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it
> costs about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times
> as much money to buy the same things.
>
> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are
> to be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.

There has to be a debt for that rule to apply. No sale == no debt.

If you already pumped the gas and actually owe the store money, that's a
different situation.

August 30th 09, 07:18 AM
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 13:13:30 -0500, "OhioGuy" > wrote:

> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
>places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
>$20".
>
> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
>spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
>now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it costs
>about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
>bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
>much money to buy the same things.
>
> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
>to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
>be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
A particular bit of paper doesn't have to be accepted, and even the
Federal government refuses payments in cash.

Counterfeiting is getting good. Stores often are the one that end up
on the short end of the stick. We had one bank where the theatre
would make a deposit and inevitably a couple of the bills would be
labeled by a teller as counterfeit and the deposit deducted. Once we
started writing down the serial numbers of every $50 and $100 before
depositing, the fake bill charges mysteriously stopped...

Dave[_28_]
August 30th 09, 07:40 AM
"OhioGuy" > wrote in message
...
> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> $20".
>
> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it
> costs about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times
> as much money to buy the same things.
>
> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are
> to be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> Any thoughts?

I've seen lots of places with signs saying they won't accept $50 or $100
bills that GLADLY accept $50 and $100 bills. So I don't understand what
purpose the signs are serving, exactly. I'm curious, at any of these places
you complain about, have you actually tried to pay a bill with a $50? In my
experience, the cashier won't even pause before they shove it into the
register, or under the register. -Dave

Dave[_28_]
August 30th 09, 07:44 AM
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
> A particular bit of paper doesn't have to be accepted, and even the
> Federal government refuses payments in cash.
>
> Counterfeiting is getting good. Stores often are the one that end up
> on the short end of the stick. We had one bank where the theatre
> would make a deposit and inevitably a couple of the bills would be
> labeled by a teller as counterfeit and the deposit deducted. Once we
> started writing down the serial numbers of every $50 and $100 before
> depositing, the fake bill charges mysteriously stopped...
>

I've seen a couple people mention counterfeiting, but I don't think that is
the reason for stores refusing $50 and $100 bills. Last I heard, the most
widely faked currency in the world was the U.S. $20 paper note. So if the
purpose of not accepting certain size bills was to reduce counterfeiting,
the signs would read something like "no twenties". Or "We don't accept 20
dollar bills". -Dave

August 30th 09, 09:01 PM
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 01:44:29 -0400, "Dave" > wrote:

>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>> A particular bit of paper doesn't have to be accepted, and even the
>> Federal government refuses payments in cash.
>>
>> Counterfeiting is getting good. Stores often are the one that end up
>> on the short end of the stick. We had one bank where the theatre
>> would make a deposit and inevitably a couple of the bills would be
>> labeled by a teller as counterfeit and the deposit deducted. Once we
>> started writing down the serial numbers of every $50 and $100 before
>> depositing, the fake bill charges mysteriously stopped...
>>
>
>I've seen a couple people mention counterfeiting, but I don't think that is
>the reason for stores refusing $50 and $100 bills. Last I heard, the most
>widely faked currency in the world was the U.S. $20 paper note. So if the
>purpose of not accepting certain size bills was to reduce counterfeiting,
>the signs would read something like "no twenties". Or "We don't accept 20
>dollar bills". -Dave

The larger bills are tested regularly by banks and places. The
twenties can remain in circulation. I had to consider stopping
acceptance entirely, but the compormise was writing the serial number
down and taking the driver license number or having the person use a
smaller bill. Within a couple of weeks, a lot of the people using
them swapped over to using twenties.

The original argument is a crock anyway. Even a $1000 wrap of
twenties is a small package.

Kalmia
August 31st 09, 04:08 AM
On Aug 29, 2:13*pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> $20".
>
> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> much money to buy the same things.

No, you don't 'HAVE' to carry around cash at all. Get with the debit
card program.

Dave[_28_]
August 31st 09, 09:01 AM
> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 01:44:29 -0400, "Dave" > wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>> A particular bit of paper doesn't have to be accepted, and even the
>>> Federal government refuses payments in cash.
>>>
>>> Counterfeiting is getting good. Stores often are the one that end up
>>> on the short end of the stick. We had one bank where the theatre
>>> would make a deposit and inevitably a couple of the bills would be
>>> labeled by a teller as counterfeit and the deposit deducted. Once we
>>> started writing down the serial numbers of every $50 and $100 before
>>> depositing, the fake bill charges mysteriously stopped...
>>>
>>
>>I've seen a couple people mention counterfeiting, but I don't think that
>>is
>>the reason for stores refusing $50 and $100 bills. Last I heard, the most
>>widely faked currency in the world was the U.S. $20 paper note. So if the
>>purpose of not accepting certain size bills was to reduce counterfeiting,
>>the signs would read something like "no twenties". Or "We don't accept 20
>>dollar bills". -Dave
>
> The larger bills are tested regularly by banks and places. The
> twenties can remain in circulation. I had to consider stopping
> acceptance entirely, but the compormise was writing the serial number
> down and taking the driver license number or having the person use a
> smaller bill. Within a couple of weeks, a lot of the people using
> them swapped over to using twenties.

OK, why did you have to consider stopping acceptance entirely? Were you
getting a lot of fake 50/100 dollar bills? If so, how did you know?


>
> The original argument is a crock anyway. Even a $1000 wrap of
> twenties is a small package.

Every wallet I've ever owned is uncomfortable to put in my pocket if it has
more than about ten - fifteen bills of any denomination in it. Forget for a
second that it's hard to close when it gets that stuffed. I could agree
with your "small package" argument if we assume that everybody carries
currency loose in their pockets or purses.

Bob F
August 31st 09, 07:02 PM
Kalmia wrote:
> On Aug 29, 2:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and
>> more places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills
>> larger than $20".
>>
>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help
>> control spending, this is making life difficult.
>>
>> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at
>> occasionally - now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current
>> gas prices, it costs about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50
>> bill they won't accept.
>>
>> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what
>> $8.50 bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry
>> around 6 times as much money to buy the same things.
>
> No, you don't 'HAVE' to carry around cash at all. Get with the debit
> card program.

Of course. The banks really need a cut of the sale. Why would you want to short
change them.

Bob F
August 31st 09, 07:03 PM
Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article >,
> "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>
>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more
>> and more places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any
>> bills larger than $20".
>
> I have no idea where you live, but in the Philadelphia area, which is
> where I live, tons of businesses have signs saying they won't accept
> bills greater than $20. This has been going on for at least the past
> ten years, so its nothing new.
>
>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help
>> control spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but why don't you use a
> debit card?

Amazing how many want to give the banks a cut.

Cindy Hamilton[_2_]
August 31st 09, 07:13 PM
On Aug 29, 2:13*pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> $20".
>
> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> much money to buy the same things.
>
> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> * * Any thoughts?

Get your cash in $20s and think hard about how much cash you need
to carry on a daily basis. Probably not that much.

Fill up more frequently. There's no law that says you have to roll
into
the station on fumes.

Or get something that doesn't guzzle so much gas. I pay about $25 for
a
fill up at current prices, and I don't think my mileage is
spectacular.

Cindy Hamilton

Michael Black[_2_]
August 31st 09, 07:46 PM
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009, OhioGuy wrote:

>> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but >why don't you use a
>> debit card?
>
> We found that we were not keeping track of spending as well, and we were
> tending to spend more than we should for a number of categories when we used
> a card, rather than a specific amount of dollars in each envelope.
>
> For example, we put $20 into the clothing category every 14 days. It
> encourages us to make it go further by frequenting thrift stores, yard
> sales, etc.
>
I'd never really budget for clothing because it's an annual or sem-annual
event. I don't buy for fashion, so I buy when the pants are worn out
or the tshirts have holes. I can live till things go on sale, so I rarely
buy except when on sale, in some cases like underwear, I expect the best
sales to be in December, so I plan accordingly.

On the other hand, when I found that Goretex jacket in June at $60 off and
I needed one, it was more important to grab it than wait till it fit the
budget.

Most things at garage sales are so cheap that if you actually see
something that you need, you buy it no matter what.

Michael

OhioGuy
August 31st 09, 08:00 PM
> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but >why don't you use a
> debit card?

We found that we were not keeping track of spending as well, and we were
tending to spend more than we should for a number of categories when we used
a card, rather than a specific amount of dollars in each envelope.

For example, we put $20 into the clothing category every 14 days. It
encourages us to make it go further by frequenting thrift stores, yard
sales, etc.

Rod Speed[_1_]
August 31st 09, 08:29 PM
Bob F wrote
> Shawn Hirn wrote
>> OhioGuy > wrote

>>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more
>>> and more places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any
>>> bills larger than $20".

>> I have no idea where you live, but in the Philadelphia area, which is
>> where I live, tons of businesses have signs saying they won't accept
>> bills greater than $20. This has been going on for at least the past
>> ten years, so its nothing new.

>>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help
>>> control spending, this is making life difficult.

>> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but why don't you use
>> a debit card?

> Amazing how many want to give the banks a cut.

Nothing amazing at all about how many prefer the convenience of a card.

SMS
August 31st 09, 09:45 PM
OhioGuy wrote:

> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.

The key word is "debt." If it's a good or service that you pay for in
advance then they can refuse cash. Look at the Costco gas stations, none
of which accept cash, or a few restaurants that don't take cash, i.e.
the "bistro" in the Whole Foods Market near me takes only debit or
credit cards (or Whole Foods gift cards). They don't want to deal with
cash and the hygiene issues.

Now if you already consumed a meal, or stayed in a hotel, and the
restaurant refused a $50 bill then they'd be violating federal law, even
if they had posted a sign stating this in advance.

At a store, if you were paying for merchandise and they refused a $50 or
$100 bill, then they'd be within their rights to refuse it and not
complete the transaction since you hadn't incurred any debt to the store

Lou
September 1st 09, 01:02 AM
"SMS" > wrote in message
...
> OhioGuy wrote:
>
> > I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with
refusing
> > to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they
are to
> > be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> The key word is "debt." If it's a good or service that you pay for in
> advance then they can refuse cash. Look at the Costco gas stations, none
> of which accept cash, or a few restaurants that don't take cash, i.e.
> the "bistro" in the Whole Foods Market near me takes only debit or
> credit cards (or Whole Foods gift cards). They don't want to deal with
> cash and the hygiene issues.
>
> Now if you already consumed a meal, or stayed in a hotel, and the
> restaurant refused a $50 bill then they'd be violating federal law, even
> if they had posted a sign stating this in advance.
>
> At a store, if you were paying for merchandise and they refused a $50 or
> $100 bill, then they'd be within their rights to refuse it and not
> complete the transaction since you hadn't incurred any debt to the store

Way back when I was in college, I remember from a business law course that
if you offered a creditor US coin and currency in a minimum number of bills
and coins (no one is required to take 10,000 pennies in payment of a $100
debt, for instance) the exact amount needed to discharge the debt (no need
for the payee to make change) and it was refused, the debt was discharged.

Oh well, it was a long time ago, and I may be misremembering.

According to
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml#q1 no
Federal law requires a private business, person, or organization to accept
coins and currency as payment for goods and services. Businesses can adopt
their own policies regarding accepting cash, unless state law says
otherwise.

Clincher
September 1st 09, 02:08 AM
>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
>> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but why don't you use a
> debit card?

His real solution is to develop self control. But there's another thing to
consider regarding plastic vs. cash.

If I spend $20 in cash, I know it costs me exactly $20.

If I spend $20 on a card, the cost is unpredictable. (At least in my case
where my debit and credit card are issued by the same institution.) Card
issuers are now openly using retail purchasing data to decide whether to cut
limits or close credit lines altogether. And it would cost me a lot more
than $20 worth of my time to unfreeze my credit reports and apply for a new
credit card. Especially in this credit market.

Rod Speed[_1_]
September 1st 09, 04:35 AM
Clincher wrote

>>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control spending, this is making life difficult.

>> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but why don't you use a debit card?

> His real solution is to develop self control. But there's another thing to consider regarding plastic vs. cash.

> If I spend $20 in cash, I know it costs me exactly $20.

> If I spend $20 on a card, the cost is unpredictable. (At least in my case where my debit and credit card are issued by
> the same institution.)

Easily fixed.

> Card issuers are now openly using retail purchasing data to decide whether to cut limits or close credit lines
> altogether. And it would cost me a lot more than $20 worth of my time
> to unfreeze my credit reports and apply for a new credit card.
> Especially in this credit market.

Then use a debit card and make an obscene gesture in their general direction.

September 1st 09, 11:10 AM
On Aug 29, 11:13*am, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> $20".
>
> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> much money to buy the same things.
>
> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> * * Any thoughts?



Giving change.

Keep in mind that businesses need to have enough cash on hand for
change. If everybody paid in $50 and $100 bills, the stores and
restaurants would have to keep more cash on hand to offer in change.
And that adds a cost to the business (paying the bank and armored
trucks or additional trips to the bank). And it also adds more of a
risk if people realize you are stocking more cash.

For example, in a smaller store or restaurant, you don't want too much
cash in the till. But if people are paying frequently with larger
bills, then you need to leave a higher number of $20s in the till to
make change. That means you are more likely to get robbed, and will
lose more in that robbery.

I have a small business where I go to events. Depending on the event,
I typically start with $30-$50 in cash. Usually $10-15 in ones and the
rest in $5s. So, if somebody tries to pay with a $50 or $100 bill
early on, I simply don't have enough change unless their purchase is
large. I did accept a $100 bill at a recent event, but I had enough
change to do it. I hate it when somebody pays for a $2 item with a $20
bill at the beginning of the day. Two of those can completely wipe out
my change.

George[_1_]
September 1st 09, 01:44 PM
wrote:
> On Aug 29, 11:13 am, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
>> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
>> $20".
>>
>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
>> spending, this is making life difficult.
>>
>> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
>> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it costs
>> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>>
>> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
>> bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
>> much money to buy the same things.
>>
>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
>> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>
>
> Giving change.
>
> Keep in mind that businesses need to have enough cash on hand for
> change. If everybody paid in $50 and $100 bills, the stores and
> restaurants would have to keep more cash on hand to offer in change.
> And that adds a cost to the business (paying the bank and armored
> trucks or additional trips to the bank). And it also adds more of a
> risk if people realize you are stocking more cash.
>
> For example, in a smaller store or restaurant, you don't want too much
> cash in the till. But if people are paying frequently with larger
> bills, then you need to leave a higher number of $20s in the till to
> make change. That means you are more likely to get robbed, and will
> lose more in that robbery.
>
> I have a small business where I go to events. Depending on the event,
> I typically start with $30-$50 in cash. Usually $10-15 in ones and the
> rest in $5s. So, if somebody tries to pay with a $50 or $100 bill
> early on, I simply don't have enough change unless their purchase is
> large. I did accept a $100 bill at a recent event, but I had enough
> change to do it. I hate it when somebody pays for a $2 item with a $20
> bill at the beginning of the day. Two of those can completely wipe out
> my change.

Then bring more small bills? Isn't your objective to sell stuff?

Clincher
September 1st 09, 02:54 PM
>> I hate it when somebody pays for a $2 item with a $20
>> bill at the beginning of the day. Two of those can completely wipe out
>> my change.
>
> Then bring more small bills? Isn't your objective to sell stuff?

For most businesses, the objective is to maximize profit. Some customers
just aren't worth selling to.

September 1st 09, 09:35 PM
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 03:01:30 -0400, "Dave" > wrote:

>OK, why did you have to consider stopping acceptance entirely? Were you
>getting a lot of fake 50/100 dollar bills? If so, how did you know?

Yes, we were. Or the bank tellers were using us for patsies to pass
their own counterfeits. We had as many as eight a week for a couple
of weeks. The bank simply said - "you have X counterfeits." At that
point we were screwed. There is no recompense.


>> The original argument is a crock anyway. Even a $1000 wrap of
>> twenties is a small package.
>
>Every wallet I've ever owned is uncomfortable to put in my pocket if it has
>more than about ten - fifteen bills of any denomination in it. Forget for a
>second that it's hard to close when it gets that stuffed. I could agree
>with your "small package" argument if we assume that everybody carries
>currency loose in their pockets or purses.

Money clip.

Dave[_28_]
September 1st 09, 09:40 PM
> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 03:01:30 -0400, "Dave" > wrote:
>
>>OK, why did you have to consider stopping acceptance entirely? Were you
>>getting a lot of fake 50/100 dollar bills? If so, how did you know?
>
> Yes, we were. Or the bank tellers were using us for patsies to pass
> their own counterfeits. We had as many as eight a week for a couple
> of weeks. The bank simply said - "you have X counterfeits." At that
> point we were screwed. There is no recompense.
>

OK, so now I'm curious. How many fake 20s was the bank claiming you were
passed? Fake 20s are a lot more common than fake 50s or fake 100s. So if
you had a lot of fake 50s, you must have had even more fake 20s. -Dave

BigDog811
September 1st 09, 10:10 PM
On Aug 31, 5:02*pm, "Lou" > wrote:
> "SMS" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > OhioGuy wrote:
>
> > > * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with
> refusing
> > > to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they
> are to
> > > be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> > The key word is "debt." If it's a good or service that you pay for in
> > advance then they can refuse cash. Look at the Costco gas stations, none
> > of which accept cash, or a few restaurants that don't take cash, i.e.
> > the "bistro" in the Whole Foods Market near me takes only debit or
> > credit cards (or Whole Foods gift cards). They don't want to deal with
> > cash and the hygiene issues.
>
> > Now if you already consumed a meal, or stayed in a hotel, and the
> > restaurant refused a $50 bill then they'd be violating federal law, even
> > if they had posted a sign stating this in advance.
>
> > At a store, if you were paying for merchandise and they refused a $50 or
> > $100 bill, then they'd be within their rights to refuse it and not
> > complete the transaction since you hadn't incurred any debt to the store
>
> Way back when I was in college, I remember from a business law course that
> if you offered a creditor US coin and currency in a minimum number of bills
> and coins (no one is required to take 10,000 pennies in payment of a $100
> debt, for instance) the exact amount needed to discharge the debt (no need
> for the payee to make change) and it was refused, the debt was discharged..
>
> Oh well, it was a long time ago, and I may be misremembering.

Not necessarily, but it's incorrect anyway. I recently attended a
Consumer Fraud seminar at my local senior center that was sponsored by
our nearby university law school. This very question came up.
According to the presenter, a business law professor, this is widely
held misconception. An "urban myth" of sorts. Absent a state law,
and there are none in my state or any other the presenter knew of, a
merchant is free to accept or reject any form of payment they wish.
The only thing the state attorney general's office requires is that
they give notice through the posting of appropriate signs.


> According tohttp://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml#q1no
> Federal law requires a private business, person, or organization to accept
> coins and currency as payment for goods and services. *Businesses can adopt
> their own policies regarding accepting cash, unless state law says
> otherwise.

BigDog811
September 1st 09, 10:23 PM
On Aug 31, 1:45*pm, SMS > wrote:
> OhioGuy wrote:
> > * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> > to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> > be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> The key word is "debt." If it's a good or service that you pay for in
> advance then they can refuse cash. Look at the Costco gas stations, none
> of which accept cash, or a few restaurants that don't take cash, i.e.
> the "bistro" in the Whole Foods Market near me takes only debit or
> credit cards (or Whole Foods gift cards). They don't want to deal with
> cash and the hygiene issues.
>
> Now if you already consumed a meal, or stayed in a hotel, and the
> restaurant refused a $50 bill then they'd be violating federal law, even
> if they had posted a sign stating this in advance.

Can I get a cite on that? There's nothing in any federal law I'm
aware of that addresses this question. In fact, in my state, if you
eat a meal in a restaurant, and aren't prepared to pay in the form
posted at the hostess desk (ie: Cash Only, or No Checks, or Credit/
Debit Cards Only, or any combination of the foregoing) you could be
charged with theft and/or theft of services and/or defrauding an
inkeeper. As a practical matter the manager would probably take
whatever form of payment you have, and tell you to never darken his
door again. But don't think you can ignore those signs without
consequence.

As to the hotel, you won't get a room if your credit/debit card
doesn't go through. The few of those establishments that still take
cash will require payment in advance, so any issues about the
denomination of your cash will be resolved before you ever see your
room.
>
> At a store, if you were paying for merchandise and they refused a $50 or
> $100 bill, then they'd be within their rights to refuse it and not
> complete the transaction since you hadn't incurred any debt to the store

BigDog811
September 1st 09, 10:34 PM
On Aug 29, 12:13*pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> $20".
>
> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> much money to buy the same things.
>
> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> * * Any thoughts?

Dude - you've gotta join the 21st Century. They can legally do it
because there are no laws to prevent it.

It's been years since I've been in a gas station or convenience store
without one of those $20 Bill signs. And many of them don't accept
accept cash at all after a certain hour. My doctor and dentist both
stopped taking cash or checks for copays a couple of years ago. And
I've recently started seeing No Cash or Checks signs in some of the
restaurants I frequent.

I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted
anywhere. You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances
with a credit/debit card, and in the mean time you'll just have to
start carrying smaller bills.

Rod Speed[_1_]
September 2nd 09, 12:02 AM
BigDog811 wrote:
> On Aug 29, 12:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and
>> more places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills
>> larger than $20".
>>
>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help
>> control spending, this is making life difficult.
>>
>> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at
>> occasionally - now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current
>> gas prices, it costs about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50
>> bill they won't accept.
>>
>> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what
>> $8.50 bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry
>> around 6 times as much money to buy the same things.
>>
>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with
>> refusing to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills
>> that they are to be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public
>> and private.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> Dude - you've gotta join the 21st Century. They can legally do it
> because there are no laws to prevent it.
>
> It's been years since I've been in a gas station or convenience store
> without one of those $20 Bill signs. And many of them don't accept
> accept cash at all after a certain hour. My doctor and dentist both
> stopped taking cash or checks for copays a couple of years ago. And
> I've recently started seeing No Cash or Checks signs in some of the
> restaurants I frequent.

> I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted anywhere.

Thats never going to happen.

> You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances with a credit/
> debit card, and in the mean time you'll just have to start carrying smaller bills.

The Real Bev[_7_]
September 2nd 09, 01:08 AM
Rod Speed wrote:

> BigDog811 wrote:
>>
>> I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted anywhere.
>
> Thats never going to happen.

Don't be too sure. Cash is pretty much untreaceable and therefore used by
criminals. "You aren't a criminal are you, Citizen? So you won't mind if we
outlaw cash and require that all purchases be made with credit or debit cards,
right? It's for your own good, Citizen..."

>> You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances with a credit/
>> debit card, and in the mean time you'll just have to start carrying smaller bills.

I don't see how people can confuse a credit card with the "I don't have to
worry about how much it costs because I'll never have to pay the bill" philosophy.

I do like the Brit expression "on the never-never", though.

--
Cheers, Bev
_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_
When you stop bitching, you start dying.

Rod Speed[_1_]
September 2nd 09, 01:26 AM
The Real Bev wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> BigDog811 wrote

>>> I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted anywhere.

>> Thats never going to happen.

> Don't be too sure.

Corse it wont. The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on 1c and 2c pieces.

> Cash is pretty much untreaceable and therefore used by criminals.

Any criminal with even half a clue uses stolen credit cards.

> "You aren't a criminal are you, Citizen? So you won't mind if we outlaw cash and require that all purchases be made
> with credit or debit cards, right? It's for your own good, Citizen..."

The voters wouldnt buy it and the legislators know that.

>>> You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances with a credit/ debit card, and in the mean time you'll
>>> just have to start carrying smaller bills.

> I don't see how people can confuse a credit card with the "I don't have to worry about how much it costs because I'll
> never have to pay the bill" philosophy.

> I do like the Brit expression "on the never-never", though.

BigDog811
September 2nd 09, 03:57 AM
On Aug 29, 12:13*pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> $20".
>
> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> much money to buy the same things.
>
> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> * * Any thoughts?

And just to put a final point on it go to this Snopes page a read a
concisely and simply written article on the issue:

http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp

They've even got links to both the U.S. Codes and U.S. Treasury pages
which address the issue.

Point, set, match.

September 2nd 09, 09:21 AM
On Sep 1, 4:44*am, George > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Aug 29, 11:13 am, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> >> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> >> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> >> $20".
>
> >> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> >> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> >> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> >> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> >> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> >> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> >> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> >> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> >> much money to buy the same things.
>
> >> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> >> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> >> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> >> * * Any thoughts?
>
> > Giving change.
>
> > Keep in mind that businesses need to have enough cash on hand for
> > change. If everybody paid in $50 and $100 bills, the stores and
> > restaurants would have to keep more cash on hand to offer in change.
> > And that adds a cost to the business (paying the bank and armored
> > trucks or additional trips to the bank). And it also adds more of a
> > risk if people realize you are stocking more cash.
>
> > For example, in a smaller store or restaurant, you don't want too much
> > cash in the till. But if people are paying frequently with larger
> > bills, then you need to leave a higher number of $20s in the till to
> > make change. That means you are more likely to get robbed, and will
> > lose more in that robbery.
>
> > I have a small business where I go to events. Depending on the event,
> > I typically start with $30-$50 in cash. Usually $10-15 in ones and the
> > rest in $5s. So, if somebody tries to pay with a $50 or $100 bill
> > early on, I simply don't have enough change unless their purchase is
> > large. I did accept a $100 bill at a recent event, but I had enough
> > change to do it. I hate it when somebody pays for a $2 item with a $20
> > bill at the beginning of the day. Two of those can completely wipe out
> > my change.
>
> Then bring more small bills? Isn't your objective to sell stuff?

Easier said that done. I'm not rich. I spend about $400 to go to a
show, and I have to pay everything in advance - hotel, gas, food,
vendor fee, and cash for change. I'm lucky if I have money left over
for lunch after that.

Luckily for me, most of my sales are by credit card or check. And the
most common purchase is $30, which is usually paid with exact change.
At this point, I have never had to refuse anybody, and i have been
going to shows for 4 years now.

But this is why I would never encourage larger bills, and I might have
to refuse one someday.

If a store has to start the day (every day) with $500 in smaller
bills, then that is $500 they can never spend. And if they take in a
lot of bills, they have to either go to the bank or pay a service to
restore their change to $500 of smaller bills.

I work in a grocery store for my main job. The tills start out with a
few hundred dollars each. That's a lot of money. And each day, we have
to have that amount in there yet again. They have an armored truck
come in every day. That truck brings smaller bills and coins, and
hauls away larger bills, checks, etc. That is an expensive service.
And sometimes, we have to stop letting customers get a roll of
quarters because we are low on change.

Smaller stores are not going to be able to afford that service.

September 2nd 09, 09:25 AM
On Sep 1, 12:40*pm, "Dave" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 03:01:30 -0400, "Dave" > wrote:
>
> >>OK, why did you have to consider stopping acceptance entirely? *Were you
> >>getting a lot of fake 50/100 dollar bills? *If so, how did you know?
>
> > Yes, we were. *Or the bank tellers were using us for patsies to pass
> > their own counterfeits. *We had as many as eight a week for a couple
> > of weeks. *The bank simply said - "you have X counterfeits." *At that
> > point we were screwed. *There is no recompense.
>
> OK, so now I'm curious. *How many fake 20s was the bank claiming you were
> passed? *Fake 20s are a lot more common than fake 50s or fake 100s. *So if
> you had a lot of fake 50s, you must have had even more fake 20s. *-Dave



Is there a study of this somewhere?

I've worked in a grocery store for 20 years now. I've seen a lot of
fake 50s and 100s, but only one fake $20 bill. So, either the 20s are
much better quality and don't get caught at the store level (or
reported to employees). THey hang up the fakes in the breakroom
sometimes. And they insist that we check all 50s and 100s, but don't
insist on checking the 20s. We are just supposed to be aware and check
them if we feel something wrong.

We took 3 bad $100 bills in one week.

Rod Speed[_1_]
September 2nd 09, 11:34 AM
wrote:
> On Sep 1, 4:44 am, George > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> On Aug 29, 11:13 am, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>>>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more
>>>> and more places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any
>>>> bills larger than $20".
>>
>>>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help
>>>> control spending, this is making life difficult.
>>
>>>> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at
>>>> occasionally - now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With
>>>> current gas prices, it costs about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of
>>>> that $50 bill they won't accept.
>>
>>>> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>>>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what
>>>> $8.50 bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry
>>>> around 6 times as much money to buy the same things.
>>
>>>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with
>>>> refusing to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the
>>>> bills that they are to be accepted as legal tender for all debts,
>>>> public and private.
>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>> Giving change.
>>
>>> Keep in mind that businesses need to have enough cash on hand for
>>> change. If everybody paid in $50 and $100 bills, the stores and
>>> restaurants would have to keep more cash on hand to offer in change.
>>> And that adds a cost to the business (paying the bank and armored
>>> trucks or additional trips to the bank). And it also adds more of a
>>> risk if people realize you are stocking more cash.
>>
>>> For example, in a smaller store or restaurant, you don't want too
>>> much cash in the till. But if people are paying frequently with
>>> larger bills, then you need to leave a higher number of $20s in the
>>> till to make change. That means you are more likely to get robbed,
>>> and will lose more in that robbery.
>>
>>> I have a small business where I go to events. Depending on the
>>> event, I typically start with $30-$50 in cash. Usually $10-15 in
>>> ones and the rest in $5s. So, if somebody tries to pay with a $50
>>> or $100 bill early on, I simply don't have enough change unless
>>> their purchase is large. I did accept a $100 bill at a recent
>>> event, but I had enough change to do it. I hate it when somebody
>>> pays for a $2 item with a $20 bill at the beginning of the day. Two
>>> of those can completely wipe out my change.
>>
>> Then bring more small bills? Isn't your objective to sell stuff?
>
> Easier said that done. I'm not rich. I spend about $400 to go to a
> show, and I have to pay everything in advance - hotel, gas, food,
> vendor fee, and cash for change. I'm lucky if I have money left over
> for lunch after that.
>
> Luckily for me, most of my sales are by credit card or check. And the
> most common purchase is $30, which is usually paid with exact change.
> At this point, I have never had to refuse anybody, and i have been
> going to shows for 4 years now.
>
> But this is why I would never encourage larger bills, and I might have
> to refuse one someday.
>
> If a store has to start the day (every day) with $500 in smaller
> bills, then that is $500 they can never spend. And if they take in a
> lot of bills, they have to either go to the bank or pay a service to
> restore their change to $500 of smaller bills.
>
> I work in a grocery store for my main job. The tills start out with a
> few hundred dollars each. That's a lot of money. And each day, we have
> to have that amount in there yet again. They have an armored truck
> come in every day. That truck brings smaller bills and coins, and
> hauls away larger bills, checks, etc. That is an expensive service.
> And sometimes, we have to stop letting customers get a roll of
> quarters because we are low on change.

> Smaller stores are not going to be able to afford that service.

They dont have to, they can go to the bank themselves.

George[_1_]
September 2nd 09, 02:08 PM
BigDog811 wrote:
> On Aug 29, 12:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
>> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
>> $20".
>>
>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
>> spending, this is making life difficult.
>>
>> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
>> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it costs
>> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>>
>> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
>> bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
>> much money to buy the same things.
>>
>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
>> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> Dude - you've gotta join the 21st Century. They can legally do it
> because there are no laws to prevent it.
>
> It's been years since I've been in a gas station or convenience store
> without one of those $20 Bill signs. And many of them don't accept
> accept cash at all after a certain hour. My doctor and dentist both
> stopped taking cash or checks for copays a couple of years ago. And
> I've recently started seeing No Cash or Checks signs in some of the
> restaurants I frequent.
>
> I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted
> anywhere.


Until for example there is an alternative to cash for say a politician
to be paid a bribe it isn't going to happen. The main driver for a
"cashless" society is the banks (you know those helpless folks we just
bailed out or the world would come to an end?). It would would be really
great for them if they could insert themselves into and make a cut of
*every* transaction.

You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances
> with a credit/debit card, and in the mean time you'll just have to
> start carrying smaller bills.

George[_1_]
September 2nd 09, 02:13 PM
The Real Bev wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> BigDog811 wrote:
>>>
>>> I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted
>>> anywhere.
>>
>> Thats never going to happen.
>
> Don't be too sure. Cash is pretty much untreaceable and therefore used
> by criminals. "You aren't a criminal are you, Citizen? So you won't
> mind if we outlaw cash and require that all purchases be made with
> credit or debit cards, right? It's for your own good, Citizen..."
>
>>> You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances with a
>>> credit/
>>> debit card, and in the mean time you'll just have to start carrying
>>> smaller bills.
>
> I don't see how people can confuse a credit card with the "I don't have
> to worry about how much it costs because I'll never have to pay the
> bill" philosophy.
>

Because they allow others to think for (and charge dearly for it) them.
Try to get the actual purchase price for a major purchase for example.
Instead its "tell us your credit card payments and how much you make and
we will tell you which car you can "afford"..."

> I do like the Brit expression "on the never-never", though.
>

Dave[_28_]
September 2nd 09, 03:28 PM
>
> OK, so now I'm curious. How many fake 20s was the bank claiming you were
> passed? Fake 20s are a lot more common than fake 50s or fake 100s. So if
> you had a lot of fake 50s, you must have had even more fake 20s. -Dave



>Is there a study of this somewhere?

>I've worked in a grocery store for 20 years now. I've seen a lot of
>fake 50s and 100s, but only one fake $20 bill. So, either the 20s are
>much better quality and don't get caught at the store level (or
>reported to employees). THey hang up the fakes in the breakroom
>sometimes. And they insist that we check all 50s and 100s, but don't
>insist on checking the 20s.

THAT is exactly why the 20 is the most commonly faked currency in the world.
Nobody checks it, making it easier to pass. The reason you've only seen one
fake $20 bill is that you aren't examining $20 bills to see if they are
genuine or not. So the ONE that got caught must have been a really
outrageously bad fake. -Dave

SMS
September 2nd 09, 05:47 PM
BigDog811 wrote:
> On Aug 31, 1:45 pm, SMS > wrote:
>> OhioGuy wrote:
>>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
>>> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
>>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>> The key word is "debt." If it's a good or service that you pay for in
>> advance then they can refuse cash. Look at the Costco gas stations, none
>> of which accept cash, or a few restaurants that don't take cash, i.e.
>> the "bistro" in the Whole Foods Market near me takes only debit or
>> credit cards (or Whole Foods gift cards). They don't want to deal with
>> cash and the hygiene issues.
>>
>> Now if you already consumed a meal, or stayed in a hotel, and the
>> restaurant refused a $50 bill then they'd be violating federal law, even
>> if they had posted a sign stating this in advance.
>
> Can I get a cite on that?

"http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqcur.htm#2"

Is U.S. currency legal tender for all debts?

According to the "Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the
U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve
notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks)
are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This
means that all U.S. money, as identified above, when tendered to a
creditor legally satisfies a debt to the extent of the amount (face
value) tendered.

However, no federal law mandates that a person or an organization must
accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services not yet
provided. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in
pennies or dollar bills.

Some movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations as a matter of
policy may refuse to accept currency of a large denomination, such as
notes above $20, and as long as notice is posted and a transaction
giving rise to a debt has not already been completed, these
organizations have not violated the legal tender law.

The Real Bev[_7_]
September 2nd 09, 07:17 PM
Rod Speed wrote:

> The Real Bev wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> BigDog811 wrote
>
>>>> I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted
>>>> anywhere.
>
>>> Thats never going to happen.
>
>> Don't be too sure.
>
> Corse it wont. The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on 1c and
> 2c pieces.
>
>> Cash is pretty much untreaceable and therefore used by criminals.
>
> Any criminal with even half a clue uses stolen credit cards.

I'm pretty sure you can't put a ton of cocaine and a medium-size airplane on
your MasterCard, even if it formerly belonged to Bill Gates or the Sultan of
Brunei.

>> "You aren't a criminal are you, Citizen? So you won't mind if we outlaw
>> cash and require that all purchases be made with credit or debit cards,
>> right? It's for your own good, Citizen..."
>
> The voters wouldnt buy it and the legislators know that.

You must have missed the "for your own good" part. Right now we have way too
many laws "for our own good" and people don't seem to whine much. Didn't
Kennedy keep getting elected?

Never fear, Citizen of Oz, soon we will be watching out for you too...

>>>> You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances with a
>>>> credit/ debit card, and in the mean time you'll just have to start
>>>> carrying smaller bills.
>
>> I don't see how people can confuse a credit card with the "I don't have to
>> worry about how much it costs because I'll never have to pay the bill"
>> philosophy.
>
>> I do like the Brit expression "on the never-never", though.

What part of Oz do you come from?

--
Cheers, Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The way England treats her prisoners, she doesn't
deserve to have any." --Oscar Wilde

The Real Bev[_7_]
September 2nd 09, 07:19 PM
Dave wrote:

>>
>> OK, so now I'm curious. How many fake 20s was the bank claiming you were
>> passed? Fake 20s are a lot more common than fake 50s or fake 100s. So if
>> you had a lot of fake 50s, you must have had even more fake 20s. -Dave
>
>>Is there a study of this somewhere?
>
>>I've worked in a grocery store for 20 years now. I've seen a lot of
>>fake 50s and 100s, but only one fake $20 bill. So, either the 20s are
>>much better quality and don't get caught at the store level (or
>>reported to employees). THey hang up the fakes in the breakroom
>>sometimes. And they insist that we check all 50s and 100s, but don't
>>insist on checking the 20s.
>
> THAT is exactly why the 20 is the most commonly faked currency in the world.
> Nobody checks it, making it easier to pass.

The guy at the ethnic produce store checks every $20 with a magic pencil. He
also posts bounced checks at the register.

> The reason you've only seen one
> fake $20 bill is that you aren't examining $20 bills to see if they are
> genuine or not. So the ONE that got caught must have been a really
> outrageously bad fake. -Dave

--
Cheers, Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The way England treats her prisoners, she doesn't
deserve to have any." --Oscar Wilde

Rod Speed[_1_]
September 2nd 09, 08:56 PM
The Real Bev wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> The Real Bev wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> BigDog811 wrote

>>>>> I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted anywhere.

>>>> Thats never going to happen.

>>> Don't be too sure.

>> Corse it wont. The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on 1c and 2c pieces.

>>> Cash is pretty much untreaceable and therefore used by criminals.

>> Any criminal with even half a clue uses stolen credit cards.

> I'm pretty sure you can't put a ton of cocaine and a medium-size
> airplane on your MasterCard, even if it formerly belonged to Bill
> Gates or the Sultan of Brunei.

You're wrong. You seriously believe that Limbaugh pays cash for his ?

>>> "You aren't a criminal are you, Citizen? So you won't mind if we outlaw cash and require that all purchases be made
>>> with credit or debit cards, right? It's for your own good, Citizen..."

>> The voters wouldnt buy it and the legislators know that.

> You must have missed the "for your own good" part.

Nope, they wont buy that either.

And as someone else pointed out, even the stupidest politician wont
be banning cash, because otherwise they wont get any bribes, stupid.

> Right now we have way too many laws "for our own good" and people don't seem to whine much.

Because they have enough of a clue to have noticed the downsides of aircraft hijacking after 9/11.

> Didn't Kennedy keep getting elected?

Wasnt by any 'for your own good' legislation.

> Never fear, Citizen of Oz, soon we will be watching out for you too...

How odd that you clowns didnt when you just completely
imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.

>>>>> You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances with a credit/ debit card, and in the mean time you'll
>>>>> just have to start carrying smaller bills.

>>> I don't see how people can confuse a credit card with the "I don't
>>> have to worry about how much it costs because I'll never have to
>>> pay the bill" philosophy.

>>> I do like the Brit expression "on the never-never", though.

> What part of Oz do you come from?

Depends on what you mean by come from. Originally, far north queensland.

Havent been there for 60 years tho except for one visit 40 years ago.

Currently from south western NSW.

BigDog811
September 2nd 09, 09:53 PM
On Sep 2, 9:47*am, SMS > wrote:
> BigDog811 wrote:
> > On Aug 31, 1:45 pm, SMS > wrote:
> >> OhioGuy wrote:
> >>> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> >>> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> >>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
> >> The key word is "debt." If it's a good or service that you pay for in
> >> advance then they can refuse cash. Look at the Costco gas stations, none
> >> of which accept cash, or a few restaurants that don't take cash, i.e.
> >> the "bistro" in the Whole Foods Market near me takes only debit or
> >> credit cards (or Whole Foods gift cards). They don't want to deal with
> >> cash and the hygiene issues.
>
> >> Now if you already consumed a meal, or stayed in a hotel, and the
> >> restaurant refused a $50 bill then they'd be violating federal law, even
> >> if they had posted a sign stating this in advance.
>
> > Can I get a cite on that?
>
> "http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqcur.htm#2"
>
> Is U.S. currency legal tender for all debts?
>
> According to the "Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the
> U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve
> notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks)
> are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This
> means that all U.S. money, as identified above, when tendered to a
> creditor legally satisfies a debt to the extent of the amount (face
> value) tendered.
>
> However, no federal law mandates that a person or an organization must
> accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services not yet
> provided. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in
> pennies or dollar bills.
>
> Some movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations as a matter of
> policy may refuse to accept currency of a large denomination, such as
> notes above $20, and as long as notice is posted and a transaction
> giving rise to a debt has not already been completed, these
> organizations have not violated the legal tender law.

All that means is that US Currency must be accepted as payment, unless
there is a specific agreement to use something else.

When a merchant (in this case a restaurateur) posts a sign in such a
manner and in such language that any reasonable person would be able
to see and understand it, that he accepts only credit/debit cards he
hasn't violated any law. By entering the establishment and ordering
your meal, you've agreed to his terms. If at the end of your meal,
you don't have a credit/debit card to pay with you've breached your
agreement. You've subjected yourself to possible civil, and depending
on the the laws of the state you're in, possible criminal
liabilities. An admittedly picky example, but it makes the point. As
I said before, the manager will take your cash rather than jump
through hoops, but you won't be served there again.

The idea that a purveyor of goods or services is required to take
payment in legal tender in any form or amount offered by the customer
is just wrong. It only takes an agreement to require otherwise, and
the posting of a sign is considered adequate to constitute an
agreement. If you don't like the terms, take your business elsewhere.

There's a sandwich shop down the block from me. It's run by an old
curmudgeon who reminds me of the soup nazi in the old Seinfeld
episode. He refuses to deal with pennies. He doesn't take checks or
cards. There's a sign on the menu board on his back wall, as well as
his cash register that says all sales are rounded to the nearest
nickel. There have been complaints filed about his practice
everywhere from the local police, to the DA's office, to the state
AG's office. Long story short, his terms are posted, and if you don't
like them you don't to do business with him. He makes dynamite
sandwiches, and I'll gladly give up a penny or two in my change to eat
them.

BigDog811
September 2nd 09, 10:06 PM
On Sep 2, 4:44*am, Shawn Hirn > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> *BigDog811 > wrote:
> > On Aug 31, 1:45*pm, SMS > wrote:
> > > OhioGuy wrote:
> > > > * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with
> > > > refusing
> > > > to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are
> > > > to
> > > > be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> > > The key word is "debt." If it's a good or service that you pay for in
> > > advance then they can refuse cash. Look at the Costco gas stations, none
> > > of which accept cash, or a few restaurants that don't take cash, i.e.
> > > the "bistro" in the Whole Foods Market near me takes only debit or
> > > credit cards (or Whole Foods gift cards). They don't want to deal with
> > > cash and the hygiene issues.
>
> > > Now if you already consumed a meal, or stayed in a hotel, and the
> > > restaurant refused a $50 bill then they'd be violating federal law, even
> > > if they had posted a sign stating this in advance.
>
> > Can I get a cite on that? *There's nothing in any federal law I'm
> > aware of that addresses this question. *In fact, in my state, if you
> > eat a meal in a restaurant, and aren't prepared to pay in the form
> > posted at the hostess desk (ie: Cash Only, or No Checks, or Credit/
> > Debit Cards Only, or any combination of the foregoing) you could be
> > charged with theft and/or theft of services and/or defrauding an
> > inkeeper. *As a practical matter the manager would probably take
> > whatever form of payment you have, and tell you to never darken his
> > door again. *But don't think you can ignore those signs without
> > consequence.
>
> I think you missed the point. What if the customer is paying in
> accordance with the restaurant's payment policy, but the restaurant
> can't process the payment? So the restaurant ran out of change and can't
> make change on a $20 for a small purchase, or the restaurant's cash
> register or credit card processing terminal is broken?

Nah, didn't miss that point, as it wasn't made in the original post.

Clearly under the circumstances you cite, all bets are off and some
sort of a reasonable compromise will need to worked out by both sides
of the transaction. By the way, and I can't remember exactly where or
when, but I know I've walked into a couple of convenience stores with
temporary signs that said their credit card machine was broken and
they only take cash. Right next to their No Bills Over $20 sign.

RickMerrill
September 2nd 09, 11:42 PM
BigDog811 wrote:
> On Aug 31, 5:02 pm, "Lou" > wrote:
>> "SMS" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>> OhioGuy wrote:
>>>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with
>> refusing
>>>> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they
>> are to
>>>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>>> The key word is "debt." If it's a good or service that you pay for in
>>> advance then they can refuse cash. Look at the Costco gas stations, none
>>> of which accept cash, or a few restaurants that don't take cash, i.e.
>>> the "bistro" in the Whole Foods Market near me takes only debit or
>>> credit cards (or Whole Foods gift cards). They don't want to deal with
>>> cash and the hygiene issues.
>>> Now if you already consumed a meal, or stayed in a hotel, and the
>>> restaurant refused a $50 bill then they'd be violating federal law, even
>>> if they had posted a sign stating this in advance.
>>> At a store, if you were paying for merchandise and they refused a $50 or
>>> $100 bill, then they'd be within their rights to refuse it and not
>>> complete the transaction since you hadn't incurred any debt to the store
>> Way back when I was in college, I remember from a business law course that
>> if you offered a creditor US coin and currency in a minimum number of bills
>> and coins (no one is required to take 10,000 pennies in payment of a $100
>> debt, for instance) the exact amount needed to discharge the debt (no need
>> for the payee to make change) and it was refused, the debt was discharged.
>>
>> Oh well, it was a long time ago, and I may be misremembering.
>
> Not necessarily, but it's incorrect anyway. I recently attended a
> Consumer Fraud seminar at my local senior center that was sponsored by
> our nearby university law school. This very question came up.
> According to the presenter, a business law professor, this is widely
> held misconception. An "urban myth" of sorts. Absent a state law,
> and there are none in my state or any other the presenter knew of, a
> merchant is free to accept or reject any form of payment they wish.
> The only thing the state attorney general's office requires is that
> they give notice through the posting of appropriate signs.
>
>
>> According tohttp://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml#q1no
>> Federal law requires a private business, person, or organization to accept
>> coins and currency as payment for goods and services. Businesses can adopt
>> their own policies regarding accepting cash, unless state law says
>> otherwise.
>

I agree that "legal tender" means that the seller has to accept the
money, BUT only if the bill is smaller than the amount due.

In other words, it is not legal to ask for payment in "unmarked small
bills" ;-)

RickMerrill
September 2nd 09, 11:51 PM
BigDog811 wrote:
> On Aug 29, 12:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
>> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
>> $20".
>>
>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
>> spending, this is making life difficult.
>>
>> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
>> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it costs
>> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>>
>> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
>> bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
>> much money to buy the same things.
>>
>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
>> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> And just to put a final point on it go to this Snopes page a read a
> concisely and simply written article on the issue:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp
>
> They've even got links to both the U.S. Codes and U.S. Treasury pages
> which address the issue.
>
> Point, set, match.


"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and
circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal
tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or
silver coins are not legal tender for debts."

Store are not allowed to accept anything ELSE. If they refuse to sell
for your $50 + $1 for a $50.50 debt, Tell them they have to or you will
report their attempt at money laundering.

September 3rd 09, 12:00 AM
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 15:40:04 -0400, "Dave" > wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 03:01:30 -0400, "Dave" > wrote:
>>
>>>OK, why did you have to consider stopping acceptance entirely? Were you
>>>getting a lot of fake 50/100 dollar bills? If so, how did you know?
>>
>> Yes, we were. Or the bank tellers were using us for patsies to pass
>> their own counterfeits. We had as many as eight a week for a couple
>> of weeks. The bank simply said - "you have X counterfeits." At that
>> point we were screwed. There is no recompense.
>>
>
>OK, so now I'm curious. How many fake 20s was the bank claiming you were
>passed? Fake 20s are a lot more common than fake 50s or fake 100s. So if
>you had a lot of fake 50s, you must have had even more fake 20s. -Dave

IIRC, none. Zip. Nada. Remember this was southeast Florida, so
faking $20s may have had some sort of poor folk stigma to it.

BigDog811
September 3rd 09, 12:12 AM
On Sep 2, 3:51*pm, RickMerrill > wrote:
> BigDog811 wrote:
> > On Aug 29, 12:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> >> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> >> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> >> $20".
>
> >> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> >> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> >> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> >> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> >> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> >> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> >> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> >> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> >> much money to buy the same things.
>
> >> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> >> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> >> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> >> * * Any thoughts?
>
> > And just to put a final point on it go to this Snopes page a read a
> > concisely and simply written article on the issue:
>
> >http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp
>
> > They've even got links to both the U.S. Codes and U.S. Treasury pages
> > which address the issue.
>
> > Point, set, match.
>
> "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and
> circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal
> tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or
> silver coins are not legal tender for debts."
>
> Store are not allowed to accept anything ELSE. If they refuse to sell
> for your $50 + $1 for a $50.50 debt, Tell them they have to or you will
> report their attempt at money laundering.

Nope. You're wrong.

sarge137
September 3rd 09, 01:17 AM
On Sep 2, 3:51*pm, RickMerrill > wrote:
> BigDog811 wrote:
> > On Aug 29, 12:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> >> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> >> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> >> $20".
>
> >> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> >> spending, this is making life difficult.
>
> >> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> >> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> >> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>
> >> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> >> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> >> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> >> much money to buy the same things.
>
> >> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> >> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> >> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>
> >> * * Any thoughts?
>
> > And just to put a final point on it go to this Snopes page a read a
> > concisely and simply written article on the issue:
>
> >http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp
>
> > They've even got links to both the U.S. Codes and U.S. Treasury pages
> > which address the issue.
>
> > Point, set, match.
>
> "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and
> circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal
> tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or
> silver coins are not legal tender for debts."
>
> Store are not allowed to accept anything ELSE. If they refuse to sell
> for your $50 + $1 for a $50.50 debt, Tell them they have to or you will
> report their attempt at money laundering.

Good luck finding someone to take that report.

RickMerrill
September 3rd 09, 02:18 AM
BigDog811 wrote:
> On Sep 2, 3:51 pm, RickMerrill > wrote:
>> BigDog811 wrote:
>>> On Aug 29, 12:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>>>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
>>>> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
>>>> $20".
>>>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
>>>> spending, this is making life difficult.
>>>> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
>>>> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it costs
>>>> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>>>> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>>>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
>>>> bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
>>>> much money to buy the same things.
>>>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
>>>> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
>>>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>> And just to put a final point on it go to this Snopes page a read a
>>> concisely and simply written article on the issue:
>>> http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp
>>> They've even got links to both the U.S. Codes and U.S. Treasury pages
>>> which address the issue.
>>> Point, set, match.
>> "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and
>> circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal
>> tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or
>> silver coins are not legal tender for debts."
>>
>> Store are not allowed to accept anything ELSE. If they refuse to sell
>> for your $50 + $1 for a $50.50 debt, Tell them they have to or you will
>> report their attempt at money laundering.
>
> Nope. You're wrong.

you're right - I should have said the seller is not allowed to require
some Other Currency.

RickMerrill
September 3rd 09, 02:19 AM
sarge137 wrote:
> On Sep 2, 3:51 pm, RickMerrill > wrote:
>> BigDog811 wrote:
>>> On Aug 29, 12:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
>>>> I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
>>>> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
>>>> $20".
>>>> As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
>>>> spending, this is making life difficult.
>>>> I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
>>>> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. With current gas prices, it costs
>>>> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
>>>> 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. With
>>>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
>>>> bought in 1969. In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
>>>> much money to buy the same things.
>>>> I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
>>>> to accept legal tender dollars. It says right on the bills that they are to
>>>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>> And just to put a final point on it go to this Snopes page a read a
>>> concisely and simply written article on the issue:
>>> http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp
>>> They've even got links to both the U.S. Codes and U.S. Treasury pages
>>> which address the issue.
>>> Point, set, match.
>> "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and
>> circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal
>> tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or
>> silver coins are not legal tender for debts."
>>
>> Store are not allowed to accept anything ELSE. If they refuse to sell
>> for your $50 + $1 for a $50.50 debt, Tell them they have to or you will
>> report their attempt at money laundering.
>
> Good luck finding someone to take that report.

It's a matter of scale: multiply the above by 1000 ...

JRWeiss
September 3rd 09, 04:18 AM
Rod Speed wrote:

> The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on
> 1c and 2c pieces.

rodless doesn't have enough of a clue to know the US hasn't had 2c
pieces for 50+ years!

Rod Speed[_1_]
September 3rd 09, 04:43 AM
The Real Bev wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> The Real Bev wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> The Real Bev wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> BigDog811 wrote

>>>>>>> I've got a feeling we're headed to a time when cash isn't accepted anywhere.

>>>>>> Thats never going to happen.

>>>>> Don't be too sure.

>>>> Corse it wont. The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on 1c and 2c pieces.

>>>>> Cash is pretty much untreaceable and therefore used by criminals.

>>>> Any criminal with even half a clue uses stolen credit cards.

>>> I'm pretty sure you can't put a ton of cocaine and a medium-size
>>> airplane on your MasterCard, even if it formerly belonged to Bill
>>> Gates or the Sultan of Brunei.

>> You're wrong. You seriously believe that Limbaugh pays cash for his ?

> If he were a coke addict I think he'd be a lot skinnier,

More fool you.

> and yeah, he'd have to pay cash for it.

Only in your pathetic little fantasyland.

> You think they hand out free samples to the already-hooked as opposed to the "Well, maybe just this once..." crowd?

Never ever said a word about free.

>>>>> "You aren't a criminal are you, Citizen? So you won't mind if we outlaw cash and require that all purchases be
>>>>> made with credit or debit cards, right? It's for your own good, Citizen..."

>>>> The voters wouldnt buy it and the legislators know that.

>>> You must have missed the "for your own good" part.

>> Nope, they wont buy that either.

> They do every single day.

Nope.

> How do you think Obama got elected?

He got elected because the other clowns had just completely imploded
the entire world financial sysem, AGAIN and hordes had lost their jobs
and houses as a result of that and hordes more wondered about how
long they would be keeping their jobs and houses and decided to give
some slick talking lawyer a go.

Nothing whatever to do with any "for your own good" spewed by some damned politician.

>> And as someone else pointed out, even the stupidest politician wont
>> be banning cash, because otherwise they wont get any bribes, stupid.

> That's the first realistic reason for keeping cash in existence.

Nope, the most important one is the no policitian that
matters would be stupid enough try banning cash.

Even the shrub wasnt THAT stupid.

> OTOH, they could follow time-honored practice and make themselves exempt. Hard to see how that would work

Corse it wouldnt, they wouldnt be able to spend it, stupid.

> -- bribe money is only useful if you can actually spend it,

And other politicians arent very useful for that.

> and politicians don't really do anything anybody would be willing to pay for if they didn't have to.

Dunno, Monica likely would have paid for what she got.

Wonder if anyone calls their kids Monica anymore ?

>>> Right now we have way too many laws "for our own good" and people don't seem to whine much.

>> Because they have enough of a clue to have noticed the downsides of aircraft hijacking after 9/11.

>>> Didn't Kennedy keep getting elected?

>> Wasnt by any 'for your own good' legislation.

> "The Government will help you and take care of you."

No one is stupid enough to believe anything that murderer said.

> What part of that don't you understand?

Nothing like your original.

>>> Never fear, Citizen of Oz, soon we will be watching out for you too...

>> How odd that you clowns didnt when you just completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.

> Hey, we're tough, we can do it as often as we want to.

And get to wear the downsides when you do too.

We didnt even get a recession out of it.

It remains to be seen if the unemployment rate even gets above 5.x% here.

>>>>>>> You need to develop the discipline to handle your finances with a credit/ debit card, and in the mean time
>>>>>>> you'll just have to start carrying smaller bills.

>>>>> I don't see how people can confuse a credit card with the "I don't have to worry about how much it costs because
>>>>> I'll never have to pay the bill" philosophy.

>>>>> I do like the Brit expression "on the never-never", though.

>>> What part of Oz do you come from?

>> Depends on what you mean by come from. Originally, far north queensland.

> Ah, home of the flame trees. I have some tiny ones growing from seed I gathered at the Huntington Library.

>> Havent been there for 60 years tho except for one visit 40 years ago.

>> Currently from south western NSW.

> Flat, red, dry

Yep.

> and desert-like?

Nope.

> The pix shown on google earth look like Utah. Nice place.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=griffith+nsw+australia&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=36.915634,67.412109&ie=UTF8&ll=-34.287999,146.043663&spn=0.075311,0.131664&z=13&iwloc=A

September 3rd 09, 10:40 AM
On Sep 2, 6:28*am, "Dave" > wrote:
> > OK, so now I'm curious. How many fake 20s was the bank claiming you were
> > passed? Fake 20s are a lot more common than fake 50s or fake 100s. So if
> > you had a lot of fake 50s, you must have had even more fake 20s. -Dave
> >Is there a study of this somewhere?
> >I've worked in a grocery store for 20 years now. I've seen a lot of
> >fake 50s and 100s, but only one fake $20 bill. So, either the 20s are
> >much better quality and don't get caught at the store level (or
> >reported to employees). THey hang up the fakes in the breakroom
> >sometimes. And they insist that we check all 50s and 100s, but don't
> >insist on checking the 20s.
>
> THAT is exactly why the 20 is the most commonly faked currency in the world.
> Nobody checks it, making it easier to pass. *The reason you've only seen one
> fake $20 bill is that you aren't examining $20 bills to see if they are
> genuine or not. *So the ONE that got caught must have been a really
> outrageously bad fake. *-Dave

If that is the case, then the banks aren't checking them either. If
they were getting them deducted from their deposits, it would be a big
deal. I work for a large chain grocery with hundreds of stores. If
fake 20s are common, then the banks certainly don't care. Otherwise,
we'd be hearing about it big time. We certainly accept plenty of 20s
every day.

SMS
September 3rd 09, 08:34 PM
BigDog811 wrote:

> When a merchant (in this case a restaurateur) posts a sign in such a
> manner and in such language that any reasonable person would be able
> to see and understand it, that he accepts only credit/debit cards he
> hasn't violated any law.

You're right, posting that sign did not constitute a violation of the
law. He can put up any sign he wants about anything. He can put up a
sign that he accepts only Euros, Canadian currency, credit cards etc..

> By entering the establishment and ordering
> your meal, you've agreed to his terms.

Nope. Don't bother looking for a cite, they're aren't any.

> If at the end of your meal,
> you don't have a credit/debit card to pay with you've breached your
> agreement.

Nope, no agreement was ever made.

> You've subjected yourself to possible civil, and depending
> on the the laws of the state you're in, possible criminal
> liabilities.

Nope, if you offer cash, you're offering currency that the merchant is
required to accept for a debt.

> An admittedly picky example, but it makes the point.

The only point it makes is that you have absolutely no idea what you're
talking about.

> As I said before, the manager will take your cash rather than jump
> through hoops, but you won't be served there again.

As long as you're being turned away for a reason other than insisting on
settling your debt with currency that the management is legally required
to accept, they can refuse you service.

Again, the key issue is whether or not the meal is paid for before it is
consumed or not. If it's paid for in advance, there is no debt, and the
merchant is free to refuse to sell the meal to a customer that wants to
pay cash.

If the customer eats the meal, and then presents cash to pay for the
meal, the restaurant is required to accept it. It doesn't matter what
signs the restaurant has posted.

What part of "This means that all U.S. money, as identified above, when
tendered to a creditor legally satisfies a debt to the extent of the
amount (face value) tendered" don't you understand? The merchant has no
power to change the requirement to accept currency for the debt.

> The idea that a purveyor of goods or services is required to take
> payment in legal tender in any form or amount offered by the customer
> is just wrong.

Cite? Don't bother, they're aren't any.

> It only takes an agreement to require otherwise, and
> the posting of a sign is considered adequate to constitute an
> agreement.

Nope, a sign doesn't mean a damn thing. They could post a sign that they
only accept gold bullion for payment of debts, but it has no relevance.
U.S. currency is legal tender for

> If you don't like the terms, take your business elsewhere.

How about the merchant abide by the law instead? If he doesn't want to
take cash, he can require payment in advance.

> There's a sandwich shop down the block from me. It's run by an old
> curmudgeon who reminds me of the soup nazi in the old Seinfeld
> episode. He refuses to deal with pennies. He doesn't take checks or
> cards. There's a sign on the menu board on his back wall, as well as
> his cash register that says all sales are rounded to the nearest
> nickel. There have been complaints filed about his practice
> everywhere from the local police, to the DA's office, to the state
> AG's office. Long story short, his terms are posted, and if you don't
> like them you don't to do business with him. He makes dynamite
> sandwiches, and I'll gladly give up a penny or two in my change to eat
> them.

Totally different situation than a merchant that refuses cash for debts
already incurred.

sarge137
September 3rd 09, 09:47 PM
On Sep 2, 6:19*pm, RickMerrill > wrote:
> sarge137 wrote:
> > On Sep 2, 3:51 pm, RickMerrill > wrote:
> >> BigDog811 wrote:
> >>> On Aug 29, 12:13 pm, "OhioGuy" > wrote:
> >>>> * I've noticed a disturbing trend over the past few months - more and more
> >>>> places are putting up signs saying "we do not accept any bills larger than
> >>>> $20".
> >>>> * As someone who has switched over to using a cash budget to help control
> >>>> spending, this is making life difficult.
> >>>> * I saw the new sign yesterday at a gas station I fuel up at occasionally -
> >>>> now $20 is the largest bill they accept. *With current gas prices, it costs
> >>>> about $40 or so to fill up - 80% of that $50 bill they won't accept.
> >>>> * 50 years ago, there were $500 and $1,000 bills in circulation. *With
> >>>> inflation, that $50 bill they won't take any more only buys what $8.50
> >>>> bought in 1969. *In other words, you already have to carry around 6 times as
> >>>> much money to buy the same things.
> >>>> * I don't understand why stores are legally able to get away with refusing
> >>>> to accept legal tender dollars. *It says right on the bills that they are to
> >>>> be accepted as legal tender for all debts, public and private.
> >>>> * * Any thoughts?
> >>> And just to put a final point on it go to this Snopes page a read a
> >>> concisely and simply written article on the issue:
> >>>http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp
> >>> They've even got links to both the U.S. Codes and U.S. Treasury pages
> >>> which address the issue.
> >>> Point, set, match.
> >> "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and
> >> circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal
> >> tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or
> >> silver coins are not legal tender for debts."
>
> >> Store are not allowed to accept anything ELSE. If they refuse to sell
> >> for your $50 + $1 for a $50.50 debt, Tell them they have to or you will
> >> report their attempt at money laundering.
>
> > Good luck finding someone to take that report.
>
> It's a matter of scale: multiply the above by 1000 ...

Point taken. But we're discussing more common retail transactions
here.

sarge137
September 3rd 09, 11:38 PM
On Sep 2, 8:18*pm, "JRWeiss" > wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
> > * *The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on
> > 1c and 2c pieces.
>
> rodless doesn't have enough of a clue to know the US hasn't had 2c
> pieces for 50+ years!

There are very few certainties in life, but one of them is that Rod
doesn't have a clue.

The US Mint struck 2 cent coins from 1864 to 1873. And in the last
year it there were only about 1,000 struck, all proofs. They're
actually quite valuable these days.

The Real Bev[_7_]
September 4th 09, 01:16 AM
JRWeiss wrote:

> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on
>> 1c and 2c pieces.
>
> rodless doesn't have enough of a clue to know the US hasn't had 2c
> pieces for 50+ years!

Must be longer than that, I don't remember them at all. Are you perhaps
thinking of the Brit tuppence?

--
Cheers, Bev
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I love to go down to the schoolyard and watch all the
little children jump up and down and run around yelling and
screaming...They don't know I'm only using blanks." --Emo

SMS
September 4th 09, 02:35 AM
sarge137 wrote:
> On Sep 2, 8:18 pm, "JRWeiss" > wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on
>>> 1c and 2c pieces.
>> rodless doesn't have enough of a clue to know the US hasn't had 2c
>> pieces for 50+ years!
>
> There are very few certainties in life, but one of them is that Rod
> doesn't have a clue.

LOL, very true, but you have to realize that he really knows that the
U.S. hasn't had 2 coins for a long time.

sarge137
September 4th 09, 08:22 PM
On Sep 3, 6:35*pm, SMS > wrote:
> sarge137 wrote:
> > On Sep 2, 8:18 pm, "JRWeiss" > wrote:
> >> Rod Speed wrote:
> >>> * *The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on
> >>> 1c and 2c pieces.
> >> rodless doesn't have enough of a clue to know the US hasn't had 2c
> >> pieces for 50+ years!
>
> > There are very few certainties in life, but one of them is that Rod
> > doesn't have a clue.
>
> LOL, very true, but you have to realize that he really knows that the
> U.S. hasn't had 2 coins for a long time.


Of course. Fomenting discord is what he does. Which is why I stopped
trying to engage him long ago, and quickly withdraw from any
discussion he manages to hijack.

Nevertheless, I'd love to get him up close and personal to teach him
some manners. I doubt that outside the anonymity of usenet he'd have
the balls.

BigDog811
September 4th 09, 08:55 PM
On Sep 3, 12:34*pm, SMS > wrote:
> BigDog811 wrote:
> > When a merchant (in this case a restaurateur) posts a sign in such a
> > manner and in such language that any reasonable person would be able
> > to see and understand it, that he accepts only credit/debit cards he
> > hasn't violated any law.
>
> You're right, posting that sign did not constitute a violation of the
> law. He can put up any sign he wants about anything. He can put up a
> sign that he accepts only Euros, Canadian currency, credit cards etc..
>
> > By entering the establishment and ordering
> > your meal, you've agreed to his terms.
>
> Nope. Don't bother looking for a cite, they're aren't any.
>
> > If at the end of your meal,
> > you don't have a credit/debit card to pay with you've breached your
> > agreement.
>
> Nope, no agreement was ever made.
>
> > You've subjected yourself to possible civil, and depending
> > on the the laws of the state you're in, possible criminal
> > liabilities.
>
> Nope, if you offer cash, you're offering currency that the merchant is
> required to accept for a debt.
>
> > An admittedly picky example, but it makes the point.
>
> The only point it makes is that you have absolutely no idea what you're
> talking about.
>
> > As I said before, the manager will take your cash rather than jump
> > through hoops, but you won't be served there again.
>
> As long as you're being turned away for a reason other than insisting on
> settling your debt with currency that the management is legally required
> to accept, they can refuse you service.
>
> Again, the key issue is whether or not the meal is paid for before it is
> consumed or not. If it's paid for in advance, there is no debt, and the
> merchant is free to refuse to sell the meal to a customer that wants to
> pay cash.
>
> If the customer eats the meal, and then presents cash to pay for the
> meal, the restaurant is required to accept it. It doesn't matter what
> signs the restaurant has posted.
>
> What part of "This means that all U.S. money, as identified above, when
> tendered to a creditor legally satisfies a debt to the extent of the
> amount (face value) tendered" don't you understand? The merchant has no
> power to change the requirement to accept currency for the debt.
>
> > The idea that a purveyor of goods or services is required to take
> > payment in legal tender in any form or amount offered by the customer
> > is just wrong.
>
> Cite? Don't bother, they're aren't any.
>
> > It only takes an agreement to require otherwise, and
> > the posting of a sign is considered adequate to constitute an
> > agreement.
>
> Nope, a sign doesn't mean a damn thing. They could post a sign that they
> only accept gold bullion for payment of debts, but it has no relevance.
> U.S. currency is legal tender for
>
> > If you don't like the terms, take your business elsewhere.
>
> How about the merchant abide by the law instead? If he doesn't want to
> take cash, he can require payment in advance.
>
> > There's a sandwich shop down the block from me. *It's run by an old
> > curmudgeon who reminds me of the soup nazi in the old Seinfeld
> > episode. *He refuses to deal with pennies. *He doesn't take checks or
> > cards. *There's a sign on the menu board on his back wall, as well as
> > his cash register that says all sales are rounded to the nearest
> > nickel. * There have been complaints filed about his practice
> > everywhere from the local police, to the DA's office, to the state
> > AG's office. *Long story short, his terms are posted, and if you don't
> > like them you don't to do business with him. *He makes dynamite
> > sandwiches, and I'll gladly give up a penny or two in my change to eat
> > them.
>
> Totally different situation than a merchant that refuses cash for debts
> already incurred.

Hmmm.....

Well, I do know what I'm talking about, and your counterpoints are
wrong.

This is an argument not a discussion, so continuing makes no sense.

If it makes you feel better, you win.

Rod Speed[_1_]
September 4th 09, 09:11 PM
sarge137 wrote:
> On Sep 3, 6:35 pm, SMS > wrote:
>> sarge137 wrote:
>>> On Sep 2, 8:18 pm, "JRWeiss" > wrote:
>>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on
>>>>> 1c and 2c pieces.
>>>> rodless doesn't have enough of a clue to know the US hasn't had 2c
>>>> pieces for 50+ years!
>>
>>> There are very few certainties in life, but one of them is that Rod
>>> doesn't have a clue.
>>
>> LOL, very true, but you have to realize that he really knows that the
>> U.S. hasn't had 2 coins for a long time.
>
>
> Of course. Fomenting discord is what he does. Which is why I stopped
> trying to engage him long ago, and quickly withdraw from any
> discussion he manages to hijack.
>
> Nevertheless, I'd love to get him up close and personal to teach him some manners.

Just another of your pathetic little psychotic fantasys.

> I doubt that outside the anonymity of usenet he'd have the balls.

The rotty and the shotty would soon fix you, child.

SMS
September 4th 09, 09:53 PM
sarge137 wrote:
> On Sep 3, 6:35 pm, SMS > wrote:
>> sarge137 wrote:
>>> On Sep 2, 8:18 pm, "JRWeiss" > wrote:
>>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> The US hasnt even had enough of a clue to give up on
>>>>> 1c and 2c pieces.
>>>> rodless doesn't have enough of a clue to know the US hasn't had 2c
>>>> pieces for 50+ years!
>>> There are very few certainties in life, but one of them is that Rod
>>> doesn't have a clue.
>> LOL, very true, but you have to realize that he really knows that the
>> U.S. hasn't had 2 coins for a long time.
>
>
> Of course. Fomenting discord is what he does. Which is why I stopped
> trying to engage him long ago, and quickly withdraw from any
> discussion he manages to hijack.

Rod is why g-d invented kill files. It's one thing to be clueless. But I
don't think he's clueless, he just plays being clueless on Usenet.

SMS
September 4th 09, 09:54 PM
BigDog811 wrote:

> If it makes you feel better, you win.

Thanks. It's always refreshing to see someone admit their mistake and
withdraw when proven wrong.

BigDog811
September 4th 09, 11:33 PM
On Sep 4, 1:54*pm, SMS > wrote:
> BigDog811 wrote:
> > If it makes you feel better, you win.
>
> Thanks. It's always refreshing to see someone admit their mistake and
> withdraw when proven wrong.

Good try.

BigDog811
September 4th 09, 11:33 PM
On Sep 4, 1:54*pm, SMS > wrote:
> BigDog811 wrote:
> > If it makes you feel better, you win.
>
> Thanks. It's always refreshing to see someone admit their mistake and
> withdraw when proven wrong.

Good try.

Brian Elfert
September 8th 09, 07:44 PM
"Bob F" > writes:

>> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but why don't you use a
>> debit card?

>Amazing how many want to give the banks a cut.

It costs money for businesses to handle cash too. I used to run a
business and preferred credit cards because it cost less than dealing with
cash/checks.

SMS
September 8th 09, 11:24 PM
Brian Elfert wrote:
> "Bob F" > writes:
>
>>> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but why don't you use a
>>> debit card?
>
>> Amazing how many want to give the banks a cut.
>
> It costs money for businesses to handle cash too. I used to run a
> business and preferred credit cards because it cost less than dealing with
> cash/checks.

Well checks anyway. Unless a business doesn't accept cash at all, the
incremental cost of handling more cash is not going to be as much as
paying 1.5-3% to the bank.

At a place like an Arco gas station, they don't take credit cards, and
they charge a hefty fee to use a debit card. They're just set up for
cash. An armored car picks up the cash from the automatic payment
machine, as well as from the cashier, so that costs the franchise owner
something, but less than paying the credit card fees.

It's interesting that some credit card processors charge higher rates
for cards that give rewards to the card holder than for non-rewards cards.

ChairMan
September 9th 09, 12:13 AM
In ,
SMS >spewed forth:
> Brian Elfert wrote:
>> "Bob F" > writes:
>>
>>>> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but why don't you
>>>> use a debit card?
>>
>>> Amazing how many want to give the banks a cut.
>>
>> It costs money for businesses to handle cash too. I used to run a
>> business and preferred credit cards because it cost less than
>> dealing with cash/checks.
>
> Well checks anyway. Unless a business doesn't accept cash at all, the
> incremental cost of handling more cash is not going to be as much as
> paying 1.5-3% to the bank.
>
> At a place like an Arco gas station, they don't take credit cards, and
> they charge a hefty fee to use a debit card. They're just set up for
> cash. An armored car picks up the cash from the automatic payment
> machine, as well as from the cashier, so that costs the franchise
> owner something, but less than paying the credit card fees.
>
> It's interesting that some credit card processors charge higher rates
> for cards that give rewards to the card holder than for non-rewards
> cards.

which proves the old saying "ain't nothing is free"
somebody somewhere pays for all the rewards

The Real Bev[_7_]
September 9th 09, 07:43 AM
ChairMan wrote:

> SMS >spewed forth:
>>
>> It's interesting that some credit card processors charge higher rates
>> for cards that give rewards to the card holder than for non-rewards
>> cards.
>
> which proves the old saying "ain't nothing is free"
> somebody somewhere pays for all the rewards

As long as it's not me....

--
Cheers, Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
SAVE GAS, FART IN A JAR

George[_1_]
September 9th 09, 01:52 PM
ChairMan wrote:
> In ,
> SMS >spewed forth:
>> Brian Elfert wrote:
>>> "Bob F" > writes:
>>>
>>>>> Why? Most ATMs just spit out $20 bills anyway, but why don't you
>>>>> use a debit card?
>>>> Amazing how many want to give the banks a cut.
>>> It costs money for businesses to handle cash too. I used to run a
>>> business and preferred credit cards because it cost less than
>>> dealing with cash/checks.
>> Well checks anyway. Unless a business doesn't accept cash at all, the
>> incremental cost of handling more cash is not going to be as much as
>> paying 1.5-3% to the bank.
>>
>> At a place like an Arco gas station, they don't take credit cards, and
>> they charge a hefty fee to use a debit card. They're just set up for
>> cash. An armored car picks up the cash from the automatic payment
>> machine, as well as from the cashier, so that costs the franchise
>> owner something, but less than paying the credit card fees.
>>
>> It's interesting that some credit card processors charge higher rates
>> for cards that give rewards to the card holder than for non-rewards
>> cards.
>
> which proves the old saying "ain't nothing is free"
> somebody somewhere pays for all the rewards
>
>
Exactly, thats why I think anyone who wants "rewards" needs to pay for
them themselves as a direct line item charge at time of purchase.

George[_1_]
September 9th 09, 01:54 PM
The Real Bev wrote:
> ChairMan wrote:
>
>> SMS >spewed forth:
>>>
>>> It's interesting that some credit card processors charge higher rates
>>> for cards that give rewards to the card holder than for non-rewards
>>> cards.
>>
>> which proves the old saying "ain't nothing is free"
>> somebody somewhere pays for all the rewards
>
> As long as it's not me....
>

The only way to avoid paying for someone else's rewards is to never
purchase anything.

Rod Speed[_1_]
September 9th 09, 08:04 PM
George wrote
> The Real Bev wrote
>> ChairMan wrote
>>> SMS >spewed forth:

>>>> It's interesting that some credit card processors charge higher
>>>> rates for cards that give rewards to the card holder than for
>>>> non-rewards cards.

>>> which proves the old saying "ain't nothing is free"
>>> somebody somewhere pays for all the rewards

>> As long as it's not me....

> The only way to avoid paying for someone else's rewards is to never purchase anything.

Wrong. The other way is to pay off your card in full every month.

Those who dont are the ones paying for the rewards.

Chief Thracian[_4_]
September 12th 09, 05:25 AM
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:38:13 -0700 (PDT), sarge137
> wrote:

>The US Mint struck 2 cent coins from 1864 to 1873. And in the last
>year it there were only about 1,000 struck, all proofs. They're
>actually quite valuable these days.

Most valuable two-cents worth ever!

Chief Thracian[_4_]
September 12th 09, 05:25 AM
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 05:11:15 +1000, "Rod Speed"
> wrote:

>The rotty and the shotty would soon fix you, child.

I bet you have a boner right now.

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